People of Judah shout and God helps them kill 500,000 people
God slaughters 70 men for looking into the ark
God has the earth swallow people
God drowns almost everyone on earth
God orders and joins in on the genocide of all of Canaan
God threatens people with having to eat their children’s flesh
Sons of Levi are blessed for randomly slaughtering cow worshippers
God kills all the Egyptian babies for Pharaoh’s stubbornness
God allows people to sacrifice their babies to him to teach them a lesson
God kills a man for not impregnating his sister-in-law
God comes out of the sky to kill David’s enemies
God allows babies to be dashed and pregnant women to be ripped open
God threatens to have wild animals carry away the Israelite’s children
God tells people to kill their loved ones if they worship other gods
Bible says beat your child with a rod
Bible says beating and wounding people is good for them
God promises to punish children for their parent’s sin
God terrifies and causes tumors
Jesus doesn’t allow a disciple to bury his dead father
God rewards Jacob for deceiving his dying father
Supposedly the people of Judah shouted and God helped them kill 1/2 million Israelites.
(2 Chr 13:15 NRSV) Then the people of Judah raised the battle shout. And when the people of Judah shouted, God defeated Jeroboam and all Israel before Abijah and Judah.
(2 Chr 13:16-18 NRSV) The Israelites fled before Judah, and God gave them into their hands. Abijah and his army defeated them with great slaughter; five hundred thousand picked men of Israel fell slain.
Thus the Israelites were subdued at that time, and the people of Judah prevailed because they relied on the LORD, the God of their ancestors.
God slaughters 70 men for simply looking into the Ark.
(1 Sam 6:19 RSV) And he (God) slew some of the men of Beth-shemesh, because they looked into the ark
of the LORD; he slew
seventy men of them, and the people mourned because the Lord had made a great slaughter among the people.
Korah questions Moses’ leadership and God makes the earth open up and swallow his people: men, women, and children.
(Num 16:20-21 NRSV) Then the LORD spoke to Moses and to Aaron, saying: Separate yourselves from this congregation, so that I may consume them in a moment. They fell on their faces, and said, "O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one person sin and you become angry with the whole congregation?"
(Num 16:27 NRSV) (…)and Dathan and Abiram came out and stood at the entrance of their tents, together with their wives , their children , and their little ones .
(Num 16:32-33 NRSV) The earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, along with their households–everyone who belonged to Korah and all their goods. So they with all that belonged to them went down alive into Sheol; the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly.
(Then God burned some other followers)
(Num 16:35 NRSV) And fire came out from the LORD and consumed the two hundred fifty men offering the incense.
(Then the whole congregation were upset about what God had done)
(Num 16:41 NRSV) On the next day, however, the whole congregation of the Israelites rebelled against Moses and against Aaron, saying, "You have killed the people of the LORD."
(God is further angered)
(Num 16:45 NRSV) "Get away from this congregation, so that I may consume them in a moment." And they fell on their faces.
(God strikes them with a plague. Moses finally intervenes to prevent the entire congregation from being killed) .
(Num 16:49 NRSV) Those who died by the plague were fourteen thousand seven hundred, besides those who died in the affair of Korah.
God drowns all the men, women, and children on the earth during the flood story:
(Gen 7:21 NRSV) And all flesh died that moved on the earth, birds, domestic animals, wild animals, all swarming creatures that swarm on the earth, and all human beings;
Here are some examples of the battles of Joshua for the possession of Canaanite cities and genocide of inhabitants as commanded by God
(All verses from book of Joshua NRSV)
(City of Jericho)(6:21) Then they devoted to destruction by the edge of the sword all in the city, both men and women, young and old, oxen, sheep, and donkeys.
(City of Ai)(8:22)Israel struck them down until no one was left who survived or escaped.
(8:29) And he hanged the king of Ai on a tree until evening; and at sunset Joshua commanded, and they took his body down from the tree, threw it down at the entrance of the gate of the city …
(The Amorites) (10:10) …(the Israelites) inflicted a great slaughter on them at Gibeon …, and struck them down as far as Azekah and Makkedah.
( God throws boulders down from heaven onto fleeing Amorites )
(10:11) As they fled before Israel, while they were going down the slope of Beth-horon, the LORD threw down huge stones from heaven on them as far as Azekah, and they died; there were more who died because of the hailstones than the Israelites killed with the sword.
(There wasn’t enough time in the day to complete the slaughter so God makes the Sun stop moving in the sky )
(10:12-13) …Joshua spoke to the LORD; and he said in the sight of Israel, "Sun, stand still at Gibeon, and Moon, in the valley of Aijalon."
And the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, until the nation took vengeance on their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jashar? The sun stopped in midheaven, and did not hurry to set for about a whole day.
(God’s mission accomplished with the Amorites) (10:20) When Joshua and the Israelites had finished inflicting a very great slaughter on them, until they were wiped out, …
————————————————————————-
More battles of Joshua for the possession of cities and genocide of Canaanite inhabitants as commanded by God
(All verses from book of Joshua NRSV)
(City of Libnah)(10:30) The LORD gave it also and its king into the hand of Israel; and he struck it with the edge of the sword, and every person in it; he left no one remaining in it;
(City of Lachish)(10:32-33) … and struck it with the edge of the sword, and every person in it, as he had done to Libnah. Then King Horam of Gezer came up to help Lachish; and Joshua struck him and his people, leaving him no survivors.
(City of Eglon)(10:35) and they took it that day, and struck it with the edge of the sword; and every person in it he utterly destroyed that day, as he had done to Lachish.
(City of Hebron)(10:37) and struck it with the edge of the sword, and its king and its towns, and every person in it; he left no one remaining, just as he had done to Eglon, and utterly destroyed it with every person in it.
(City of Debir)(10:39-40) and he took it with its king and all its towns; they struck them with the edge of the sword, and utterly destroyed every person in it; he left no one remaining;
So Joshua defeated the whole land, the hill country and the Negeb and the lowland and the slopes, and all their kings; he left no one remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded.
————————————————————————-
One last big battle of Joshua for the possession of cities and genocide of the Canaanite inhabitants.
Here finally, all the inhabitants of Canaan are exterminated.
(all verses from the book of Joshua NRSV)
(11:1-4) People of Hazor, Madon, Shimron, Achshaph, northern hill country, Arabah, Naphoth-dor, Canaanites in the east and the west, the Amorites (again?), the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Jebusites and the Hivites unite against the Israelites.
(11:14) All the spoil of these towns, and the livestock, the Israelites took for their booty; but all the people they struck down with the edge of the sword, until they had destroyed them, and they did not leave any who breathed.
(Let there be no doubt whose idea it was for these genocides)
(11:20) For it was the Lord’s doing to harden their hearts (the Canaanites) so that they would come against Israel in battle, in order that they might be utterly destroyed, and might receive no mercy, but be exterminated, just as the LORD had commanded Moses.
God threatens to punish the Israelites by forcing them to eat the flesh of their children.
(Lev 26:27-28 NRSV) But if, despite this, you disobey me, and continue hostile to me, I will continue hostile to you in fury; I in turn will punish you myself sevenfold for your sins.
(Lev 26:29 NRSV) You shall eat the flesh of your sons, and you shall eat the flesh of your daughters.
(Jer 19:9 NRSV) And I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and all shall eat the flesh of their neighbors in the siege, and in the distress with which their enemies and those who seek their life afflict them.
Here Moses says "kill your brother, your friend, and your neighbor."
In this story, Moses is gone for a long time at the top of a mountain. Meanwhile the children of Israel start partying and worshipping a golden calf.
When Moses comes down from the mountain he relays an order from God to start the bloodbath.
(Exo 32:27-29 NRSV) He said to them, "Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, ‘Put your sword on your side, each of you! Go back and forth from gate to gate throughout the camp, and each of you kill your brother, your friend, and your neighbor.’"
The sons of Levi did as Moses commanded, and about three thousand of the people fell on that day.
(Moses then speaks to the sons of Levi)
Moses said, "Today you have ordained yourselves for the service of the LORD, each one at the cost of a son or a brother, and so have brought a blessing on yourselves this day."
(The sons of Levi are blessed for randomly killing family members, friends, and neighbors, whose only crime was worshipping the calf)
God kills scores of innocent babies and children.
This is the popular Exodus story in which God is imagined to strike down innocent babies and children for the actions of a Pharaoh whose heart Yahweh himself had hardened (thus rendering the Pharaoh incapable of complying with God’s demands).
(Exo 11:10 NRSV) Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh; but the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he did not let the people of Israel go out of his land.
(Here God has hardened Pharaoh’s heart and then turns around and punishes Pharaoh’s "decision" by murdering innocent babies and children)
(Exo 12:29 NRSV) At midnight the LORD struck down all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh who sat on his throne to the firstborn of the prisoner who was in the dungeon, and all the firstborn of the livestock.
God kills the children of Israel who wanted some meat.
(The people of Israel complain and God gets angry)
(Num 11:1 NRSV) …Then the fire of the LORD burned against them, and consumed some outlying parts of the camp.
(The Israelites get tired of eating manna (something vaguely like corn flakes). They start crying and wishing they were still slaves in Egypt, so God gets angry again and says)
(Num 11:19-20 NRSV) You shall eat (meat)… for a whole month– until it comes out of your nostrils and becomes loathsome to you– because you have rejected the LORD who is among you, and have wailed before him, saying, ‘Why did we ever leave Egypt?’"
(Num 11:31 NRSV) Then a wind went out from the LORD,
and it brought quails from the sea and let them fall beside the camp.
(The people work all day and night gathering their meat and as they are taking their first bite suddenly and unexpected…)
(Num 11:33-34 NRSV)…the anger of the LORD was kindled against the people, and the LORD struck the people with a very great plague.
So that place was called Kibroth-hattaavah, because there they buried the people who had the craving.
Because they were wicked enough to ignore the part in his commandment for human sacrifice that allowed them to substitute an animal for the baby, God lets them go ahead and sacrifice their babies to him so they would be horrified and know he is Lord.
(Ezek 20:26 NRSV) I defiled them through their very gifts, in their offering up all their firstborn, in order that I might horrify them, so that they might know that I am the LORD.
God kills a man for not impregnating his brother’s wife.
(Gen 38:9-10 NRSV) But since Onan knew that the offspring would not be his, he spilled his semen on the ground whenever he went in to his brother’s wife, so that he would not give offspring to his brother.
What he did was displeasing in the sight of the LORD, and he put him to death also.
King David is getting older and needs some help from God to complete another slaughter:
(2 Sam 22:9-16 NRSV) Smoke went up from his nostrils, and devouring fire from his mouth; glowing coals flamed forth from him.
He bowed the heavens, and came down; thick darkness was under his feet.
He rode on a cherub, and flew; he was seen upon the wings of the wind.
He made darkness around him a canopy, thick clouds, a gathering of water.
Out of the brightness before him coals of fire flamed forth.
The LORD thundered from heaven; the Most High uttered his voice.
He sent out arrows, and scattered them –lightning, and routed them.
Then the channels of the sea were seen, the foundations of the world were laid bare at the rebuke of the LORD, at the blast of the breath of his nostrils.
God allows Jewish babies to be dashed to pieces and pregnant Jewish women to be ripped open.
(Hosea 13:16 NRSV) Samaria shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword, their little ones shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open.
Here God threatens to have wild animals carry the Israelites children away.
(Lev 26:22 NRSV) I will let loose wild animals against you, and they shall bereave you of your children…
The Bible says to kill your wife, your daughter, your son, your brother, your friend, etc… if they worship other gods.
(Deu 13:6-10 NRSV) If anyone secretly entices you–even if it is your brother, your father’s son or your mother’s son, or your own son or daughter, or the wife you embrace, or your most intimate friend– saying, "Let us go worship other gods," whom neither you nor your ancestors have known,
any of the gods of the peoples that are around you, whether near you or far away from you, from one end of the earth to the other, you must not yield to or heed any such persons. Show them no pity or compassion and do not shield them.
But you shall surely kill them; your own hand shall be first against them to execute them, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
Stone them to death for trying to turn you away from the LORD your God, …
The bible says to beat your kids with a rod.
(Prov 23:13 NRSV) Do not withhold discipline from your children; if you beat them with a rod, they will not die.
The bible says that beating people and inflicting wounds is good for people.
(Prov 20:30 NRSV) Blows that wound cleanse away evil; beatings make clean the innermost parts.
God unfairly promises to punish innocent children for the sins of their parents "to the third and fourth generation".
(Exo 20:5 NRSV) You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,
The Lord terrifies and causes tumors to grow in the people of Ashdod because they have the Ark of the Covenant.
(1 Sam 5:6 NRSV) The hand of the LORD was heavy upon the people of Ashdod, and he terrified and struck them with tumors, both in Ashdod and in its territory.
Jesus doesn’t allow one of his disciples to bury his father.
(Mat 8:21 NRSV) Another of his disciples said to him, "Lord, first let me go and bury my father."
(Mat 8:22 NRSV) But Jesus said to him, "Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead."
Deception of a suffering, dying father by his son is rewarded by God.
Jacob steals Isaac’s blessing pretending to be his brother Esau and playing a trick on his dying father. God then rewards the deception.
(Jacob is nervous about pulling the wool over his dying father’s eyes.)
(Gen 27:11-12 NRSV) But Jacob said to his mother Rebekah, "Look, my brother Esau is a hairy man, and I am a man of smooth skin. Perhaps my father will feel me, and I shall seem to be mocking him, and bring a curse on myself and not a blessing."
(Here Jacob does the dirty deed)
(Gen 27:19 NRSV) *Jacob* said to his father, "*I am Esau* your firstborn. I have done as you told me; now sit up and eat of my game, so that you may bless me."
(Dying Isaac blesses Jacob thinking he is blessing Esau his other son)
(Esau shows up later and is angry about Jacob stealing his blessing, oblivious to the fact his father is suffering and dying in front of him)
(Gen 27:35 NRSV) But he (Isaac) said, "Your brother came deceitfully, and he has taken away your blessing."
(Here is God rewarding Jacob for stealing the blessing)
(Gen 28:14 NRSV) and your offspring shall be like the dust of the earth,…
Hi capella.
What you’ve mostly done here, is grab what your values are, and judged God according to your own notion of right and wrong. Of course, you, as an imperfect moral being, would not agree with God’s opinions. That’s to be expected.
I personally don’t have a major problem with these things, although some are harder for me to accept than others. Still, I judge my morality by His standards, not vice-versa. ^_^
Steve,
that’s fair. As far as being an “imperfect moral being” I would hope that a more perfect moral being would prefer to peacefully resolve situations instead of throwing bolders down from the sky to crush fleeing people and ordering the extermination of a whole country as in the Joshua stories.
Capella (why this name?), I am from a country where Christianity was long time forbidden by the communists. Now, after “revolution”, you imagine the fervor! seems like one of my bigoted countrymen. Pay no attention because your word is true. The problem is that that book shaped us for about 2000 years!
What a waste! If only Julian (the “Apostate”) would not have been assassinated! Now we struggle too hard to escape. Unbelievable!
Thank you for the good moments and escuse my English.
Sincerely Yours,
A. Vasile
Fantastic. I’ve found some good examples here I didn’t have before, thanks a lot.
And in resopnse to Steve: God is not just contradicting Capella’s moral standards (which clearly accord with the generally accepted ones of western society anyway) but also his own rules, such as Not Killing, Not Stealing (surely the entire book of Joshua is concerned with stealing), and how about Jesus’ ‘Love thy neighbour’?
All those atrocities – and no one says – perhaps the OT is corrupted?
Barnaby Bryan, “not killing” is a law imposed onto human beings rather than something God has abide to… isn’t it?
If one was to make an argment that an entity that has ultimate authority has the right to kill innocent children if they wish, then I concur.
But I take issue with the idea of such an entity being “good” or “loving.”
I agree its ok for you to claim ‘god’ has the right to force innocents into cannibalistic activity but you cannot claim this same god cannot to also be benevolent.
(edit) I agree its ok for you to claim ‘god’ has the right to force innocents into cannibalistic activity but you cannot claim this same god is also benevolent.
Nice summary. I’m sure you can add quite a bit more to the list of attrocities commited in the “name of God” in the Bible. But this is a nice succinct primer on the subject.
Kudos to you. I tend to find that generally Christians gloss over these autrocities committed in the Bible, that is if they read the Bible at all, but are unable to show any reasoning for God’s actions. After all, if they question God they may get the same fate as those mentioned in the Bible.
I don’t know where the idea comes from that God is all good. Some say he is all good, all knowing, and all powerful, which logically is impossible, for such thinking denies the existence of evil. God, logically, cannot be all good, all powerful, and all knowing, all at the same time. The Bible claims that God created both good and evil, and that he is above both. Your list of atrocities that God committed judges God against a standard that is not in the Bible. I assume this standard you judge God by is your own conception of what a god should be. Where do you get this standard by which you judge God? Why do you deny that at times God could be evil? Who are you to say what God “should” be?
There are two particulars I wish to take note on. The disciple of Jesus who needed to bury his father. . . his father had not yet died! What he was saying was, let me take care of my father until he dies and then I shall bury him. When Jesus said, “Let the dead bury their dead.” He is using the word “dead” in two senses. Jesus was claiming that the man’s father was already “dead” for not believing. In other words, “Let the unbelievers bury their own unbelieving dead.”
I admit that it is quite cruel of God to command things that cannot be kept. Ezekiel claims that God commanded things that are impossible to keep so that Israel could always be accounted evil and would never be righteous. The one example you mention is that God commanded all the firstborn to be “consecrated” to God, meaning destroyed, or sacrificed. He also commanded that anything consecrated shall be destroyed. He also commanded against shedding innocent blood. These three commands together cannot logically be kept. The Israelites, I assume, sacrificed their firstborn in an attempt to keep these commands. This is downright dirty of God. And it displays that God at times can exhibit evil behavior.
The idea that God is all good is defended only by ignoring or “reinterpreting” much of Scripture.
Capella, good list you have there. I think that a lot of Christians live in a state of denial. They just pretend that the atrocities dont exist in their “inspired, infallible, inerrant” “word of God” . Fact is these things DO exist in the Bible. Probably because it is the word of MAN not God, in particular the word of an ancient barbaric people who use “God” or “Yaweh” to justify their genocide and blood lust.
There is simply no other explanation, otherwise you have to reconcile a homicidal, genocidal, bloody ogre of a monster god in the OT with the supposedly gentle peacenik hippy Jesus in the NT. The two things simply do not reconcile no matter how much tap dancing round the issues the fundies try to do.
Which is why Mark Twain fmously said “faith is believing in things that aint so”
Words which are truer and of more value and relevance than any of the contradictory BS you find in the bible.
Personally, I have never understood how any single entity that is declared both omniscient and omnipotent can also be considered “perfectly good” when one of the things said entity has created (or allowed to be created and sustained) is “evil.” If a being has not only complete fore-knowledge of everything that will take place in Existence, but also has the power to shape every event that will ever occur, yet allows something to come into being which is in anyway “evil” (including humanity itself), is not the being which permitted this also an instigator of evil?
Not being judgmental: I can live with the idea that I am less than an amoeba when it comes to understanding the motivation of a force capable of creating and maintaining the sum of Existence. But, in a strange way, would logic and rational thought not trump my own limited perception of how such a deity thinks or what motivates it?
Maybe what we’ve really been afraid of through the ages is that the only “evil” in the world truly is that which humans have conceived and acted upon?
Some other related info worth reading at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil
And a truly interesting, open-minded debate from both sides at:
http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/docs/craig-nielsen0.html
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?” -epicurus
i think thats the end all argument.
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
(Logical but insufficient)
Is he able, but not going to just yet?
(Then he must have purpose for evil)
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
(Again, He must have a purpose for it)
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?” -epicurus
(Willing must have something to do with Loving us. I would ask, “Why doesn’t He give us a little better response than disguising His existence so well that those willing to believe have to suffer their entire lives with nothing but uncertainty and necessary faith”)
You know, the light just never goes on in the heads of some people. Most of the thinking world knows by now that the OT is NOT history and yahweh was nothing more than a manmade tribal god. Most people back then were ignorant and superstitious and worshipped a multitude of gods. Every nation had it’s own chosen tribal god. For heaven sake the bible tells you of the sons of god and the assemblies of the gods. It even tells of the most high father god dividing up the land among the sons and it clearly says yahweh was given Israel only!!! The leaders such as the Moses character and the lying priests were the only ones who were educated and used their gods to control and manipulate the masses and it still goes on today. The bible is NOT the word of the Power that created this universe. Mankind cannot possible speak for the Creator. Anyone who can look at the universe and consider it was made by a brutal killing machine such as the OT god needs their head examined. This ‘god’ was used by evil men to gain wealth, rape and murder. Any god who commands the rape of a child or woman is not a god but a damn devil. The OT is so filthy no parent in their right mind would read it to a child. Neither is it fit for any decent moral adult!
BTW….Nikola Tesla the electrical genius of the age examined the instuctions Moses was given in contructing the ark of the covenant and he determined it was a very powerful weapon. Those men who ‘god’ struck dead for touching it died due to electrocution and most scientist know that as a fact. That was just another lie by those leaders to make them think all that power was from an angry god. The bible tells a story, but not the one religious people have been given, but alas, they continue to dwell in the dark ages like they haven’t been told “you may read and study and investigate”. Perhaps most of them have become addicted to another man thinking for them….
Oceans of ink and skies of paper have been expended by defenders of the bible to explain away the odd and inconsistent texts of the bible and to explain/defend the nonexistent and contradictory god concept.
The biggest atrocity is right under the Christians noses. The crucifixion. It appalls me to think of the twisted logic prevalent in Christianity that leads people to believe in and even celebrate such barbaric human sacrifice. That is what they are celebrating in communion. They pretend they are eating the flesh and blood of the fallen hero in this celebration. AND according to the bible, this was all planned before creation. So god knew better but he did it anyway. What is it with this perfectly good, perfectly powerful, perfectly knowing being that just has to have something or somebody suffer, bleed and die because of sin?
Excellent points.
We used to joke about what kind of jewelry Christians would wear if Jesus would have been executed in an electric chair instead of on a cross.
I think we are desensitized to the fact that people routinely wear an execution device on their necklaces and that churches often mount the same execution device high on their roofs.
There’s a passage in the Bible (capital B out of respect) that says that “the dead know nothing”. I think of this every time someone tells me that Jesus “died” for me. I’m of the opinion that when you die, you’re gone—that’s the end of the movie. But no, Jesus now sits a the right hand of God in heaven. So maybe he didn’t die for me?
(some content snipped for brevity and other reasons)
The Problem of evil is a very religious question. It isn’t lack of education or , insanity, or poverty, or what ever else. Even if you Atheists have inadequate answers for the existence of evil, I thank you for recognizing it and calling it by name…and standing opposed to it.
FWIW, we athiests aren’t against “evil” since there is no such thing, being only an invention of religion to demonize people. Most of us however are against stupid political killing such as in the Iraqi war (not to mention that Bush claims “God told him to do it”) and otherwise we are generally against killing for religious reasons. I’ll just go out on a limb for myself and say that I’m against people killing people in general.
Anyway thanks for your kind comment.
The problem is though;logically the christians do have a point in saying that if we say there is no ‘evil’ then how do we know there is something called ‘good’.It seems that we live in a deterministic universe that cares not whether we kill each other or not.eg.If a world-wide virus knocked out the whole human race overnight,would the sun still rise in the morning? The answer of course is yes.And also if we are a part of the machine and slave to our hormones,neurons and nurture, what does to personal responsibility?Can we blame people for bad actions? Can we praise them for good?
Respectfully, the ideas of “good” and “bad” did not originally come from Christianity or from religion for that matter. What is “good” or “bad” is more of a problem with civilization, or how do we behave so that we, our family and our friends are happiest.
To not kill and steal from other people is simply logical. If I don’t steal from or kill other family’s members then maybe they would be less likely to steal from me or kill my family members, unless they are stupid, in which case you do what you have to defend. Simply makes sense.
It’s simply logical to treat other people as you would like to be treated. Most people in society actually do this because otherwise they won’t fit in.
Morality has been and always will be ultimately derived from logic.
Capella,I agree totally that morality has to derive from logic,and that ‘bad’ people should be restrained,but can they be blamed in a deterministic universe-?that was what I was asking.When we lock them up,are we restraining them or punishing them?
I think we are doing both punishing and restraining. I see no contradiction in a person being responsible for their actions and in control of their future in a deterministic universe.
For the sake of argument, lets say that things aren’t determined. Let’s say a person is about to make a huge mistake. Let’s also say a camera is shooting this while it happens.
When you play the video/film back, at least on camera, the person is absolutely going to make the decision they made everytime (the camera’s version of the universe is deterministic and will unfold the same way every time it’s replayed). Yet the person is responsible for the decision they made in the film and was entirely in control of their future.
So in this deterministic film universe we can easily think about the person being responsible and in control, yet the result has already been determined.
Just wanted to mention this as a thought exercise.
Yes I think people can be blamed, particularly if they knowingly do harm to others. It’s stupid and they should be punished and it can possibly have a deterring effect on them.
Are they evil? No, again it’s ignorance and/or stupidity and very likely a result of severe personality disorders.
The ultimate antidote I think is better upbringing of children and quality education.
Capella,
I think there is a significant disconnect between your thought experiment and reality, that being that observers are removed from complicity by definition, they can’t affect the outcome of the situation they witness.
In reality, as you are performing an action, you take responsibility for it, without knowing for sure what the outcome will be. It’s up to you to use what knowledge you have of the past in order to make better educated decisions, and morality is an abstraction of this exact same pattern: making good decisions based on past experience.
I think the problem is getting one’s mind around the concepts of both being in control of one’s future and having been in control of one’s future.
Again, in the movie the person being filmed was in control of their future and they were also destined to make the decision they made. There’s no contradiction between these two if one thinks about it carefully.
the OT is certainly corrupt since it’s made of letters supporting the actions of people that wanted to have a reason to kill others
This “God” is an unpleasant character. If he existed I would want no part of “him.” “He” is my enemy.
I am skeptical, Capella, of your explanation of morality. While morality is logical, I cannot accept that it is manmade. If it is, then there is not universal truth and there is only the general consensus of the masses as to what is good and evil, based upon a desire to avoid conflict.
What if a husband and wife have a child. For the duration of this child’s life, it’s existence is kept secret from friends and family as both parents sexually and physically abuse the child. It dies after a few short years. Under what I understand to be your view of morality, this is acceptable. If I am mistaken please let me know.
Well according to the bible children, under certain circumstances are to be fed to wild animals, swallowed by the earth, drowned in water, stabbed with swords, abandoned to follow Jesus, and otherwise generally put to death so I wouldn’t rely too much on the bible as a guide on morality in how to treat children.
While of course child molestation is not as bad as most of these things, I personally, of course, find it horrible and I’m sure you would agree that virtually all reasonable people think so too whether it’s known or not known.