When I was a young Christian decades ago, for years I mostly studied the Bible in verses and chapters that were given to me at Sunday school, in sermons, teaching materials, etc… One day I decided that I would read the Bible all the way through from cover to cover.
As I made my way through the Bible, I began noticing a tremendous amount of killing by the “Children of Israel” following their grand exodus from Egypt. This killing was ordered by Moses and later Joshua and was according to the stories, ultimately ordered by God.
This killing was not limited to the military forces of the Canaanites or even to their leadership and government. It wasn’t even limited to males. The killing included women, the elderly, the young, and even babies. I began to get mental images of Joshua’s army stabbing pregnant women, elderly people, children, and babies which was of course very troubling.
This killing was supposedly justified by the corruption of the Canaanites, but according to the story it led to the Canaanite’s extermination and the occupation of their land by the Israelites which were very convenient since the Israelites needed a land to occupy at the time.
God himself even joins in the killing by throwing boulders down from heaven to crush people as they are fleeing from Joshua’s army.
(All verses from the book of Joshua)
(Jericho)(6:21) Then they devoted to destruction by the edge of the sword all in the city, both men and women, young and old, oxen, sheep, and donkeys.
(City of Ai)(8:22)Israel struck them down until no one was left who survived or escaped.
(8:29) And he hanged the king of Ai on a tree until evening; and at sunset Joshua commanded, and they took his body down from the tree, threw it down at the entrance of the gate of the city …
(The Amorites) (10:10) …(the Israelites) inflicted a great slaughter on them at Gibeon …, and struck them down as far as Azekah and Makkedah.
(God throws boulders down from heaven onto fleeing Amorites)
(10:11) As they fled before Israel, while they were going down the slope of Beth-horon, God threw down huge stones from heaven on them as far as Azekah, and they died; there were more who died because of the hailstones than the Israelites killed with the sword.
(There wasn’t enough time in the day to complete the slaughter so God makes the Sun stop moving in the sky )
(10:12-13) …Joshua spoke to God; and he said in the sight of Israel, “Sun, stand still at Gibeon, and Moon, in the valley of Aijalon.”
And the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, until the nation took vengeance on their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jashar? The sun stopped in midheaven, and did not hurry to set for about a whole day.
(Amorites) (10:20) When Joshua and the Israelites had finished inflicting a very great slaughter on them, until they were wiped out, …
(City of Libnah)(10:30) God gave it also and its king into the hand of Israel; and he struck it with the edge of the sword, and every person in it; he left no one remaining in it;
(City of Lachish)(10:32-33) … and struck it with the edge of the sword, and every person in it, as he had done to Libnah. Then King Horam of Gezer came up to help Lachish; and Joshua struck him and his people, leaving him no survivors.
(City of Eglon)(10:35) and they took it that day, and struck it with the edge of the sword; and every person in it he utterly destroyed that day, as he had done to Lachish.
(City of Hebron)(10:37) and struck it with the edge of the sword, and its king and its towns, and every person in it; he left no one remaining, just as he had done to Eglon, and utterly destroyed it with every person in it.
(City of Debir)(10:39-40) and he took it with its king and all its towns; they struck them with the edge of the sword, and utterly destroyed every person in it; he left no one remaining;
(Then the summary is given)
So Joshua defeated the whole land, the hill country and the Negeb and the lowland and the slopes, and all their kings; he left no one remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the God of Israel commanded.
(11:1-4) People of Hazor, Madon, Shimron, Achshaph, northern hill country, Arabah, Naphoth-dor, Canaanites in the east and the west, the Amorites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Jebusites and the Hivites unite against the Israelites.
(11:14) All the spoil of these towns, and the livestock, the Israelites took for their booty; but all the people they struck down with the edge of the sword, until they had destroyed them, and they did not leave any who breathed.
(11:20) For it was God’s doing to harden their hearts (the Canaanites) so that they would come against Israel in battle, in order that they might be utterly destroyed, and might receive no mercy, but be exterminated, just as God had commanded Moses.
As a side note, these battles almost certainly never happened. Archaelogists have proven that Jericho had been abandoned long before Joshua would have arrived there. As a matter of fact, Moses and Joshua likely never existed, but were creations by the Bible’s authors.
The Israelites were never enslaved in Egypt. There was no exodus. There is no archeological evidence that the Children of Israel wandered in the wilderness for 40 years.
Instead of the Israelites conquering the Canaanites, the culture and race of the people of Israel likely evolved from the Canaanites over centuries.
These battle stories were likely created to give grandeur to Israelite origins and were handed down through oral retelling for generations. Finally they were edited and set down in writing at a time when the Jewish people themselves were actually being exiled from their land by foreign powers.
“For it was God’s doing to harden their hearts so that they would come against Israel in battle…”
Why would a being supposedly worthy of being worshipped as just and merciful deliberately cause two nations to come to blows and slaughter each other? A glaring absurdity that can’t be ‘explained’ away except to admit that either A) God is sadistic in the extreme with his playthings, i.e. humanity, and is therefore utterly unworthy of worship, or B) He doesn’t exist. As A) would be just a rediculous as a loving god doing these things, any remotely rational person is left with B).
Yea, I remember trying to read the bible in times of trouble, and running across countless gratuitous acts of violence that where rather disturbing.
I’m actually not an Atheist, believe it or not, nor a Christian, but I’m actually a Pagan and somewhat of a Deist and Humanist, as well as a Naturalist.
Anyways, I’m actually trying to write a book right now, about religious freedom, and all the trouble I had as a Christian in the past, coming across all this horror and terror, when I was in search of a loving god.
There are several books already on the subject, so it will take a long time for me to publish anything due to all the research I’m doing, to make sure I’m not just regurgitating what’s already been said, but maybe instead, just another 2 cents, from another author. Or as it stands now, an aspiring author.
Even though I’m not actually an Atheist, I am very thankful for Atheists and the very important points that they make, I would be able to find the liberation that I’m finding now without you, so never stop. BIG HUMAIN HUGS to you all,
Jake
Oops, would NOT be able to find the liberation I’m finding now without you. I made a booboo in my previous comment.
I too was a christian many years ago. My present state of belief is well stated on this page, I identify with all that is written. Today, a god and religion means nothing to me. I don’t believe it ever did. As for the bible entry, I also agree that it’s content is that of a violent time in history driven by a hateful person with the power to destroy. I don’t know if I have a ‘label’ still trying to sort that out. I would only describe myself as a person with a sensitivity toward the human experience.
Hi Margie,
Even though I call myself “pagan,” I’m still trying to keep in mind that I don’t have to let it be a religion. You’ve made a very good point about having a “sensitivity toward the human experience.” That is something that I would like to be a premise in the book(s) that I am aspiring to write.
It’s nice to find other people who USED to be xtian, and see the bible for what it really is. *hugs*
Jake
Emilio I humbly thankyou on behalf of everyone here for your input on this thread. May your god continue slaughtering innocents until the end of time.
Trevor says :Emilio I humbly thankyou on behalf of everyone here for your input on this thread. May your god continue slaughtering innocents until the end of time.
RCS: The good work of Joshua et al was continued with vigour by the crusaders, inquisitors, slave traders.
In fact Aquinas gave a full theological justification for killing of heretics.
First of all I would like to thank this website for allowing these comments and testing our faiths. What good is it to practice basketball, but never play in a game?
I am by no means a skilled debater or aplogist, but I would like to say that while the stories in the Bible are quite disturbing to me (killings) here is why I believe that there was no fault in Gods actions. God says do not commit murder. Let’s get a little deeper and ask why does God say that? Could it be possible that God doesn’t want us to take judgment into our own hands.
> but I would like to say that while the stories in the Bible are quite disturbing to me (killings) here is why I believe that there was no fault in Gods actions. God says do not commit murder <
That’s true, but unfortunately after giving this commandment to the Israelites, God (in the Bible tale) commands them to exterminate almost everyone in Canaan, men, women, children, and babies.
God in these stories even joins in on the killing directly by throwing bolders down to crush people who are fleeing.
Capella
>You used part of what I said and left the rest out. God is passing Judgement. What instrument he uses to exact that judgement is his discretion. Is it not?
<
Not if a god is imagined to be a just, loving god.
The Key word Mr. Capella being “JUST”
A god that is imagined to throw bolders down to crush fleeing women with children and babies to death has nothing to do with “JUST.”
It has to do with the imaginations of the barbaric people in ancient time who created these bible stories.
What would be just in your eyes, if you were in that position to judge the whole world?
Not crushing to death, stabbing to death, drowning, etc… scores of women, children, babies, and the elderly.
This was very impressive stuff to the barbaric people who created these stories. That was the sort of god they wanted to imagine and were impressed with.
Today, only the most brutal dictators would commit such horrible acts of genocide against women and children and of course such actions are generally denounced by most nations when they occur.
Respectfully Mr. Capella, you didn’t answer the question. It is easy to critique, but that’s not looking at it from a realistic point of view is it? I am not trying to disrespect or anything because it might see like that. Forgive me if I do. But the reason I am asking is to try to get our minds to think about what would we do to try to get the whole world to live lives of respect and discipline, where we can get the most out of this earth that has been put here for us. And, at the same time respecting everybody right to choose, and at the same time punishing the ones who are doing wrong and at the same time etc. etc. When you start putting things in perspective of the whole world and not just this one region or this couple of months. But form many many years to come, things aren’t always so black and white. Mr. Capella, I enjoy your intelligent feed back. I am not trying to convice you of what to belive, and I’m sure you are not trying to convince me what NOT to believe. But I don’t think that we owe it to ourselves to really look deep for these answers and look at it from the point of view of the ENTIRE world because it does concern everyone. After all, our souls could be at stake here, that’s a big gamble to take. Think about it a little. Good talking with your.
p.s. you sitll didn’t answer the question, lol.
I made an error. What I meant to say was “I think we DO owe it to ourselves to really look deep…” Sorry, that one word can change the whole message.
Yes, respectfully, it is easy to critique a supposedly “just” god that commits and commands genocide over and over in these tales of the Old Testament.
The same thing that we today charge dictators for in trials that curiously last years and years with lots of camera coverage to keep them continually on top of the news.
Yes, it’s also easy to try to change the subject to divert attention away from uncomfortable facts which is what is truly unrealistic.
Zulla, I suggest you look into the historical accuracy of the cananite genocides. You will find that they did not happen. Jerico did not have a wall at that time, and Ai was already a ruin. I suggest reading the bible unearthed by finklestein and silberman. The reason you struggle with the morality of these verses is because tey are simply not true. Why do you think Christians are allways coming up with weak arguements to defend the bible. God does claim not to be the author of confusion (1 cor.14:33), but Christians are confused: Gay bishops or not? contaception or not? grace or deeds etc..
The bible is just full of errors. For example, Jer. 25:11-12: states “This entire land shall become a desolate wasteland. Israel and her neighboring lands shall serve the king of Babylon for seventy years. Then, when seventy years of captivity are over, I will punish the king of Babylon and his people for their sins, says the Lord. I will make the country of the Babylonians an everlasting wasteland.” (In the book of Daniel, the author states that the prophecy is about Jerusalem, and NOT Israel, as Jeremiah clearly states). Jeremiah and Daniel were also both wrong about the length of the exile. The Babylonians took Jerusalem in 587/586 BC (rewriting the bible p154) and Cyrus the Great (not the mysterious Darius the Mede of Dan. 9:1) conquered Babylon in 538 BC (rtb p156). He also proclaimed that the Jews could return home in the first year of his reign (Ezr. 1:1-4). This is at most 49 years, and even if we are generous and take the start of the prophecy as 597 BC, when the Babylonians first laid siege to Jerusalem (the bible uneathed p293), that still only totals 59 years. During that time, neither Israel nor Jerusalem lay desolate (tbu pp 305-308), and Babylon was not destroyed by Cyrus. In fact, Alexander the Great (356-321 BC) may have considered using the city as his capital (The Babylonians An Introduction p67). In other words, the prophets of the bible were just plain wrong!
Christians generally dismiss extrabiblical evidence (aka hard facts) to place trust in a book that constantly fails to be the “truth” (read prov 14:15: only a simpleton believes everything they are told”. Interestingly, the footnotes in some bible translations give the exact same dates for events!
you should read the text, and ask what it tells you about the reliability of the book. For example, is it consistant? does it contradict itself, are there anachronisms? does it reflect the world around us? (did you know that it actually tells us the earth is flat!) You have to open your mind and not start from the preconception that it must be right (I used to be like this), and that is why so many verses cause. difficulties!
I also do not see how you would get the whole world to respect each other. All anyone can do (regardless of belief) is to be a steward of their on behaviour. To expect other to change is out of your control. People will always do what THEY want. To force them to do otherwise is to take away free will. This reminds me of a quote by Steven Weinberg :“Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you’d have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion.”
Right, it’stime for bed, I can feel my self slur on the keyboard
PS did you know that the b est way to defeat god is to use an iron chariot? “Yahweh was with Judah; and drove out the inhabitants of the hill country; for he could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron” (Judges1:19) If only those mythical cananite victims of jewish intolerance knew that
pps Egypt actually ruled Canan at the time!
Billy Sand’s,
How are you. Good to speak with you. That’s is interesting stuff and I most definitly will look at some of those books you suggested. Information is always a good thing. I just wanted to mention one thing before I went on my journey to those suggested books, the verse you are talking about in Jeremiah is talking about JUDAH, not ISRAEL. And since you are pretty well versed in your Bible reading, you know that the kingdom was divivded in two, Israel to the north and Judah to the south. Jerusalem was in Judah, which means Daniel was talking about Judah and so was Jeremiah. Not apologetics here, read it for your self any version you want. Biblegateway.com, just type in the verse {which is Jeremiah 25:1} and it will translate in a whole buch of different versions. It CLEARLY says Judah. Anyway, thank you for your input Billy Sands. I’m going to look to those histories you mentioned above.
Thank you all. Until Next time.
P.S. Proverbs 14:15 “A simple man believes anything, but a prudent man gives thought to his steps.” That’s all of Proverbs 14:15, not just part of it. Thanks again. I’ll get back you guys.
Hi Zulla,
Daniel 9.1 clearly says Jerusalem, not Israel or Judah (At least the NIV, KJV YLT and Word versions do. as i suspect do all translations. My point is that daniel was misquoting the prophecy, and that still stands.
It’s nice to see a christian that does not just take parts of a verse that suits them for a change. The point I was making with prov 14:15 is still the same: do not believe every thing you are told, but give it thought and consideration. Once you have done that, then you have reached a more sound conclusion. I don’t really think that whether I quote the long or short version to you makes any difference (I was just going to bed at the time). The point is still the same.
PS, sometimes the bible refers to both israel and judah as just israel.
Good luck with your reading
Mr. Billy Sands, how are you. I looked in to “The Bible Unearthed”. Finklestein and Silberman do have some interesting facets, but from what I briefly read they are still looking into things themselves. I appreciated the point that was made by them to find the truth and no other agenda. Which is what we are all doing.
Wait for me on those time lines of the Exile, I have to dive into this with all those numbers. I want to be fair to both sides of this conversation. Thanks again.
Hi Zulla, I am not trying to prove anything from a point of preconception. I was a christian, and had to change my view because of all sorts of EVIDENCE. I did everything I could to keep my faith. I am therefore being objective. I respect that you want to know the truth too, but there is more than a hint of biblical preconceptions about your responses. The jerusalem stuff is largely irrelevant to the fact that jeremiah was wrong. It wasa only a throw away comment to illustate biblical errancy. Jeremiah is talking to all in judah. Daniel thinks he was talking solely of jerusalem. Ignore this and concentrate on the other stuff. It is much more important. we should deffer discussion till you have read the book. you are making assumption just now that isreal and judah were once part of the same kingdom. If you continue reading, you will see that this may not have been the case, And all the fire dammage does is prove there was a fire.
Good luck in your quest. What ever you end up beleving, I hope it brings you peace (one of the benefits atheism has brought me!)
Billy, how are things? Well, I wasn’t a Christian before. I had been to Church when I was younger and so on and so on, but I ended up on the streets doing things that I look back on and see that it was cruel and mean stuff. Point being something inside me led me to God, and the story continues, and I started wondering if this stuff was real, and I have been looking ever since. It has led me to Christianity. So, that throw away comment doesn’t seem to work because they (Daniel and Jeremiah are talking about the same thing). If it is irrelevant then how is Jeremiah wrong? What is the Bible to you. What (in your perspective) does the Bible claim. And why is it attacked so heavily compared to other religions. Maybe people (Christians not excused) make the Bible out to be something it never claimed to be. I would like to know what you think it is and how you came to these conclusion. I look forward to hearing from you, and I’m going to see if I can find a copy of that book at the library or something. Respectfully.
None…
Great post Capella.I would like to know if other people have talked to christians about this subject.The usual response I get is a)The Old Testament is about God’s Holiness and the New Testament is more about His Love-this is a paradox;two sides of a coin regarding God’s character.And b)Because we all have immortal souls that live forever,bodily death is of no importance.God kills people sometimes for their own good in order to try and save their souls!(Like the apostle Paul telling the Corinthians to hand over a man to satan in order to save his soul.1 Cor.5v5)
As a christian I used to argue like this.Now I can see how screwed up I was!!
I agree and I heard the same excuses when I was a Christian, i.e. a potter has the right to break his pottery because he created it (in other words people are equal to inanimate objects when it comes to killing them) and Joshua was doing the Canaanite children and babies a favor by stabbing them in cold blood so they wouldn’t have to live a life raised by evil people.
How convenient that the Canaanite people were evil since at least in the bible tale the Israelites needed a place to live and benefitted from all of the Canaanite goodies and Canaanite young women they took for themselves.
Also I find the baby/children raising argument incredible since the “good” and “kind” Israelites (the ones stabbing everything that breatheth) could have adopted these children and raised them, supposedly being the good guys in all of this.
When God stopped the sun for Joshua so that He could have a longer day to fight the Cananites, did the sun only stop over Canaan or over the whole world?
I don’t know if anyone else has noticed this, but there is a delicious irony in this whole subject: one can exonerate the god of the Bible on these genocide charges, only if one accepts that the Bible (i.e. the word of god) is not literally true…
Man, I love Christianity…
Religion is all about faith and trust, but that is a lot to ask from a person. my opinion
Religion is all about faith and trust, but that is a lot to ask from a person.