Jesus told his disciples that they would live to see “the Son of Man” come in the clouds and the world would end. Jesus was later executed and of course he never came back and of course the world never ended. The disciples all died almost 2000 years ago.
(Mat 24:3 NRSV) When he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will this be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”(Mat 24:27 NRSV) For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
(Mat 24:30 NRSV) Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see ‘the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven’ with power and great glory.
(Mat 24:34 NRSV) Truly I tell you, *this generation will not pass away* until all these things have taken place.
(Mat 16:28 NRSV) Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”
Hello. What you saying about Jesus dying, then being ressurected, and then the world ending is innacurate. Jesus told his followers that he would be crucified and be ressurected 3 days later. After his death, his body was moved to a private tomb owned by a man named Joseph. When Mary Magdalene and Mary (mother of James) went to the tomb on that Sunday morning, the body was gone. An angel appeared to them that Jesus had risen from the dead and that they should tell the other disicples. What is miracoluos about this is that more than 500 people saw Jesus alive (after he had died). All of his wounds (except for the one’s on his hands from the crucifixation were gone). Several theories were introduced to explain this. The swoon theiry says that he was unconscious, and awakened in the tomb. But how would he have the strength to remove a stone weighing thousands of punds, and then slip past the two Roman Guards. Plus, blood and liquid were coming out of his side when he was being crucified, indicating that he could not have been alive. It wouldn’t of been in the disciples way to remove the body, claiming that he was risen. They would not have lied to anyone because of their belief and faith. As far as his comming, maybe it is something that is supposed to happen in the future. All I know is that Jesus is real.
Hey David,
We live an a… how do you say… “Holographic Universe.”
David,
I appreciate the paragraph of explanation, but you didn’t appear to address the fact that Jesus clearly said that the disciples standing around him would still be alive when the end of the world and the coming occurs:
David does bring up a point I would like to put my 2 cents in about. Consider the accuracy of an ancient document that has had 2000 years to sit around and have someone rewrite it to their own liking. The original bible was originally kept chained a wall and only the pope and a few of the Roman Catholic Elite had access to it for a long long time. Also consider the general thoughts of catholics, that the pope can change what he wants in the bible or their religion. They have taken a pure religion and made it into an evil government during the dark ages. To do so they changed whatever they wanted in their religion to make them self have power over everyone including kings. Seeing as only they had access to the bible, it is pretty much a sure thing that they had their way with it.
It is quite possible that they fabricated the resurrection of Jesus and every ones accounts of it. Also since we do not personally know how strong the faith of the disciples really was, nor do we know of any unrecorded hidden motives, who’s to say they didn’t lie about it. All we have is what is recorded. If that has been tampered with or is false, there is no way for us to know the difference.
Well, considering I don’t try to scare people into believeing the unbelievable, and I am really a good person, I think I will be just fine.
Truthfully strong religious people are trying to pull the world apart and put us behind. Consider the fights with islamists, they hate the west because our religion is soo forceful, but theres is even worse. Also consider stem cell research. It is no different than studing any other cell in someones body. But it is being constantly attacked by people who want to force their beliefs on others, such as yourselves.
It is also funny for you to quote God in sucha way, like in your own words, it means nothing without a refrence to the bible, and even then I don’t believe the bible is accurate at all anymore. So any argument you come up with, it will have to be in the world of logic and tangability for it to get to an athiest. But I do believe in God, just I see God differently, and I do understand that there is a lot that we don’t know. I am just not happy with how everyone says they think they know the unknowable.
It is not your fault you are so strong in your beliefs, nor is it your fault that you try to shove your beliefs down everyones throat. It is because you have been led to believe that is how it should be done.
In order to find true truth, you have to question everything that is said to you. And everything that you read. And when the pastor talks and relays a message, you should try to look it up in the Bible before you completly believe what is said. (my mother said that too, so don’t blame that one on me.)
So try to think about why some of the methods of the chirch are in place, and think what would happen if they did not exist. Such as what if the chirch had strong beliefs to only teach people who activly come to them to become christians? Their chirch never would have gotten off the ground or expanded into what it is today. Also think about what happens to the money that goes into the offering plate when you go to chirch. Do they tell you it goes to the poor and needy? Maby ocasionally, but it goes to the chirch to pay the bills and the staff. Really there is nothing wrong with that, but it is run like a business.
There are many benifits of going to chirch I agree. I wish I had a place to meet with a huge group of people that are automaticly going to be nice and I wouldn’t feel vulnerable to talk to them about anything. Also they would act as a huge support group, which would be very heplful in life. Chirch is a wonderful place to make friends and meet new people, these are the things that I love about a chirch. The feeling of a community. People should do this even if they do not have a religion or a chirch, it can be a good experience.
What I don’t like about the chirch is the message that if you don’t act a certain way and if you don’t do certain things that you will be eternally punished, or as Seventh Day Adventists believed you wouldn’t go to hell but seace to exist. If the list of things you had to do was clear, and the messages were clear instead of cryptic it woulden’t be so bad. The other things I did not like was the inconsistencies with what may be said and what is or had been done. For instance the many religious wars in our past. And the early popes were extremly evil and turned the chirch into a ruling body over even the king. And that a pastor could say anything he would want and interpret the bible any way he wanted and most people would believe him. It gave power to the chirch ove everyone. They had in their hands the power to raise you to heaven or send you to hell pretty much, and it was all based on their opinion of you and your actions. They could say give us this redicoulous ammount of money or you will go to hell and we will publicly condem you and make you look bad to everyone back in those days.
I like how it is now toned down. This is because of the making of the United States and its Constitution that gives you religious freedom. The chirch had to tone itself down in order to keep people, they were no longer forced to go to chrich and pay an extra tax to the chirch. So now religion in the US is just a big money maker. Everyone pays tithes, the chirch gets richer and financialy more powerful. And they can exert their influence over the government now. Just look at the fights about stem cell research and evolution. They still have power over the people, but it is now a power to control their moral fabric rather than the power to kill them if they did not believe as it was 400 years ago.
The “generation” here speaks about the Adamic fallen generation. He’s used it elsewhere when he says “wicked and evil generation”, “generation of serpents” etc. all referring to the Adamic fallen generation which fell by deception.
Therefore, this is not speaking about the current generation at the time of the utterance. It speaks about humanity as a whole since the time of Adam.
To Capella: My explanation of Mat. 16:28
If you studied the Jewish feasts correspondece to the NT events, there are two comings. 1. The rapture, and 2. The secong coming.
The rapture happened in the 1st cent. AD. And there were disciples who were alive at the time. We are now in the tribulaiton and awaiting the 2nd coming.
Let’s not forget Matt. 26:64, where Jesus tells the high priest that he will see Jesus return. another Failed prophecy by the son of A man.
As for all you smug types above, are you for real or just being satirical? My only regret is thAt neither of us will be around for me to tell you I told you so. People do not allways reject god because they want to. It is something I tried my best to prevent from happening, but the bottom line is there is nothing to indicate that there is a god. When I look at personal experience, experiences of others, what the bible says about god, the nature of the physical and biological universe; infact everything, I see it is just wrong. Even if the god of the bible were real, I would not want to be included in the followers of a god who orders genocide and the murder of children, who accepts humam sacrifice (jephtah’s daughter), has a real problem with women, condones slavery, punishes people for the sins of their ancectors, lies, lets job become attacked by the devil for a bet (infact Jobs family are the only people Satan killed in the bible -god must have killed or ordered the killing of millions – so much for forgiveness). He also lies, bullies people, demeans the disabled (who he made in the first place!) and loses his temper a lot. In fact, when he does act for the benefit of others, it is only so he looks good, not because he cares about others, and I though true moral actions were done with the needs of others in mind. I particularly like the bit were god makes some bears maul and kill some young boys because they called Elish a slap head!(2Kings 2:23-24. other references available on request). Good job they didn’t call him a specky big nosed femminist and abolishonist! man kind would still be paying for it.
GOD OF LOVE?
There is so much scripture pointing to Christ return in the first century that it proves embarrassing to most believers.
Christians have only two choices when confronted with the truth:
(1)Point to other scriptures and bend them around and try to spin a reason as to why christ is coming back later.
(2) Admit that there is a problem and that they just can’t explain away.
I guess that they could use the old stand-by and tell you that SATAN has deceived you and your going to HELL by trying to confuse Gods’ elected people and you need to shut up and pray that the ALMIGHTY GOD needs to open your eyes to the truth and just quit asking questions that cause Christians to have to stop and THINK about their religion because they already have their minds made up……..(well,you get the point)
Either someone felt I’d play this part out perfectly and planned one hell of a cast and special fx, or I better get my show in gear and figure out the proper aftermath of going to hell twice and somehow ending up being some idiot who said I will die for your sins and then ” oh hell no” I didn’t sign up for this job, I asked for the original package deal. I just hope I don’t go placing myself in another time zone anytime soon without tattooin’ some instructions on myself as to why I came back….
Jesus promised his Second Coming would be in tandem with the destruction of Herodian Jerusalem. And all the Apostles followed suit in that expectation. This is why it is recocognized by many scholar, liberal and conservative,that the entire early Church was expecting Jesus to show up before that generation passed away. So, with the NT record before us, either such a thing happened or it did not. If it did not happen, Christian claims are in BIG trouble. Nothing can repair the kind of damage that implies. If it happened, something of that magnitude would be in history. Is it? It is: Josephus, a general in the Jewish War against the Romans, reported the following anomally: “Such prodigies had happened, as this nation, which is superstitious enough in it own way, would not agree to expiate by the ceremonies of the Roman religion, nor would they atone the gods by sacrifices and vows, as these used to do on the like occassions. Armies were seen to fight in the sky, and their armor looked of a bright light color, and the Temple shone with sudden flashes of fire out of the clouds. The doors of the Temple were opened on a sudden, and a voice greater than human was heard, that the gods were retiring, and at the same time there was a great motion perceived, as if they were going out of it, which some esteemed to be causes of terror. The greater part had a firm belief that it was contained in the old sacerdotal books, that at this very time the East would prevail, and that some that came out of Judea, should obtain the empire of the world. . .” (Josephus Complete Works, Dissertation 3:3:13) Atavist Bible Christians would believe this description fits the expectations of Paul, Jude and John as recorded in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; Jude 14 and Revelation 12:7.
when jesus siad this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.
he wasn’t talking about the about the very people he was talking to. he was tlaking about the “generation” of the jews or the “race” of jews. i don’t know if you have ever heard the phrase “lost in traslation” that is basically what happened. you should check out a “KEY WORD BIBLE” it has certain words in the bilbe underlined and in the back you can read the greek defention or meaning to help better understand the idea given, well any ways what jesus was actually saying was this race will surely not pass… and if my sources are correct then the jewish race has not perished and jesus has not come.
Eric,
That’s not correct. Jesus clearly said that the disciples standing around him would still be alive when the end of the world and the coming occurs:
While He was on earth Jesus taught that the Kingdom of God was at hand or near. Isn’t it possible that the Kingdom of God actually came to earth the moment of His resurrection? The disciples were alive to see that. Think about it. You might not be right.
What Jesus is describing in these verses that was supposed to happen before his disciples tasted death definitely never happened:
Jesus said a lot of things that were hard to understand. He even said he purposely spoke in parables so that certain things would be hidden from the worldly wise. This passage may not be as black and white as you think. Generation could mean dispensation or era. As far as the listeners not tasting death until they see the son of man coming in his kingdom, that could have been fulfilled at the transfiguration or pentecost or possibly he was alluding to the fact that believers won’t see death, but pass from death into life. In John 8:51 Jesus says those who keep his word will never see death. He certainly isn’t talking about death as we know it, or is he?
All true knowledge (even secular-although all truth is true)is preceeded by faith.
Doesn’t sound like the transfiguration or pentecost to me. Sounds more apocalyptic to me.
What Jesus is saying here with these particular verses is not hard to understand and he wasn’t speaking in parable. Clearly he was making predictions that his disciples were to expect (nation against nation, rumors of war, false messiahs and prophets, famines and earthquakes, etc…)
Angels would be sent to gather the “elect.” One person would be *taken* while another is walking or working with them.
This of course never happened.
All the tribes of the earth would mourn.
No record of this ever happening.
The stars would fall from the sky.
Never happened (can’t possibly happen. Stars are bigger than the earth, but Jesus and everyone else in his time was unaware of this).
He would return in *clouds*.
Never happened.
He said all this would happen before his disciples tasted death.
Wrong again.
Etc…
Later Paul was still under the delusion that Christ would return in the lifetime of his followers:
I was a born again believer for several years and saw much of these same errors and contradictions in the Bible, the only difference being the need at the time to rationalize them away instead of facing them.
You’re not listening. Did you even read my reply? I guess your mind is made up already. Good luck!
Actually if you bother to read my post, I addressed and refuted every one of your points so I think the not listening or not being able to reply and having one’s mind made up is on the other foot, but good luck to you also.
Capella,
I too went to a Christain camp and did the whole Christain thing for a while, but it did seem illogical. I, like you, question everything and MUST come to my own conclusion. I never understood why animals had to be sacrificed, or why Jesus’ blood erased my sins. None of it made sense to me. The more I dug into the bible the more confused (and disenchanted I got). With all that said, I still believe that there is a god. Maybe not the one in the bible, but something. The bible is a 2000 year old text, which, for a while, was orally passed down…its accuracies are very questionable. So, okay, throw that (and man made religion) out and ponder the existance of God without it.
There are so many *little* miracles that happen to the average person…you call is coincidence, but (really) maybe there is something else. I’ve personally experience it. I also experienced a real voice (in english) warning me not to go (when a traffic light turned green). Of course this startled me and (for that millisecond, while I was wondering who spoke), a red sports car zoomed by (thru his red light). It then occured to me that something very interesting happened. I urge you to keep an open mind and stop wasting your time in proving that Christianity is wrong…start thinking about what life could really be about.
Cheryl,
First off I want you to know that I think you’ve made some good points and I respect your opinions.
However I think everyone experiences extremely unlikely things. One time I was out of work for 6 months and while finally receiving a job offer on the phone another better job offer came in on call waiting. What are the odds of that happening?
Actually IMHO, the odds are really quite good that unusual things happen eventually. A person encounters scores of events in a year. I think it would be miraculous if occasionally out of these scores of events some unlikely and very unlikely things didn’t happen. In poker there are hands that are so unlikely that the odds are literally astronomical against ever having one in most types of poker games (i.e. straight or royal flushes). The reason they are listed however is that although they are extremely unlikely in say draw poker, they are inevitibly going to happen over the long haul.
As far as wasting my time. I have to disagree. First off I enjoy the humor and irony in the problems of Christianity if one can forget the other dredful aspects. I think I’m providing valuable information for people and lots of people have written me with gratitude for the information and entertainment over the years.
It’s like M*A*S*H. It’s something that is sometimes so terrible (i.e. Christians justifying horrible things like executing prisoners, tens of thousands of children dying in the Iraq war, beating children in the name of discipline, persecuting gay people, etc…) that you have to laugh about it to keep from crying.
As far as keeping an open mind, I do have an open mind. I don’t like to be categorized as someone who “believes there is no supernatural.” I am open to the possibility and have been my whole life. At this point however I just don’t see any reliable evidence to support the supernatural and plenty of psychological aspects that make it desirable for people to imagine it.
As far as purpose, of course family and friends are always a part of the equation or should be. Otherwise, it’s what the person makes of life that counts, not so much what life happens to do to them.
My opinion is that if people don’t have anything better than dysfunctionality to share, they should try to stay out of each other’s way, otherwise forgiveness makes perfect sense because someone has to stop the cycle of dysfunctionality or people will just keep dumping on each other which ultimately culminates in terrorism and war.
Anyway I’m rambling on. Thanks again for sharing your viewpoints and being respectful.
Capella
when Jesus referred to this generation, he was referring to the generation who would see the restoration of Israel. When He said that some here would not die till they saw the Son coming in His Kingdom. The next verse explains that 3 days later, Peter, James and John went up with Him on a mountain, there they saw Him in His glory. I feel very sorry for you that you spend your life fighting something you say doesn’t even exist. (remaining cheap insult directed at Capella deleted)
No, again, when Jesus said “this generation” he meant “this generation.”
He wasn’t talking about the transfiguration. Please read my comment #21 on this page as to why that suggestion is wrong.
As far as fighting something I “say doesn’t exist.” I don’t say that anything supernatural doesn’t exist. That is a convenient strawman cooked up by Christians. I’m not fighting anything supernatural existing or not. I point out logical flaws in the Bible and in the arguments of Christians and hopefully provide a little levity to non-believers.
I deleted your statement calling me a “fool.” This is my website. I think I’m more than generous to allow Christians to post and discuss their positions, but I don’t allow them to launch ad-hominem attacks and cast cheap insults at me.
If that’s your idea of being a “good witness for Jesus,” then you can start your own blog or wail away at me from someone else’s site.
take care,
Capella
Capella,
Yes, I agree that although the probablity of an event occuring may be small, it can still happen (without devine intervention). In my case, I heard an acutal voice. It wasn’t a sixth sense or anything like that, it was a voice (a whisper). That’s when I knew for sure that something else was out there. I guess you would have to experience that first hand to really know what I mean.
Okay, let me ask you this; did you ever wonder about space? It definately exists, but it seems to have no beginning or end – this goes against everything that we know. And if there is an end to space, then what? I think there is so much that we’re not supposed to know at this point.
Just curious; when we die, do you believe that we’re nothing more than worm meat, or do you think we come back to do it again?
Also, do you believe a person named Jesus existed, and talked about forgiveness and such, or was that made up?
Cheryl
Cheryl,
I have actually experienced hearing a voice. When I was a teenager I was playing in the backyard when I heard my mom calling my name. I went to the house to see what she wanted and she looked at me funny and said that she hadn’t called me.
About space: if you go to the top article (today is March 16, 2007) called the “God of the Gaps” I address this issue. There have and will always be unknowns in life. I think your reference to space could be likened to people long ago not knowing what the wind was or where rain and clouds come from, etc… and mistakenly attributing them to gods.
We apparently evolved to think about the universe in 3 dimensions. It’s hard for our brains to deal with other dimensions that may cause space to wrap around on itself, but it doesn’t follow that it has some connection to anything magical or supernatural IMHO any more than ancients thinking there were gods that had to be appeased or there would be no rain and their crops would fail. We like the ancients simply have a gap in our knowledge at this point that may be perfectly clear to our descendants someday.
About when we die: At this point it’s my subjective opinion that our consciousness is solely a product of chemical and electrical processes in our brains. If this is true, then like a computer, when our brains are “turned off” and begin deteriorating, that consciousness ends forever, so my opinion is that before we are buried or cremated our consciousness doesn’t go elsewhere, but that it’s already gone to what programmers call the “bit bucket.”
I do think that a person named Jesus did exist because he was a failure. Religious people don’t tend to make up stories where the god they worship fails. I think Jesus thought he was a great prophet and was to lead a supernaturally joined rebellion against the Jewish dominators at the time (the Romans). This actually ties back into the subject of this article. Jesus predicts the “Son of Man” will come and end the domination of the Romans and cause dramatic changes in the world.
Jesus may have even tried to start a rebellion/uprising by the temple incident (overturning the merchant’s tables). This is probably what got him in trouble and ultimately instead of leading the uprising he was promising, he left his disciples scratching their heads when he was executed. Decades after Jesus there was a Jewish leader that actually did what Jesus had wanted to do. He got a Jewish uprising going. But his plans failed also because it was quickly squashed by the Romans.
I think later the embellishments to the stories came, Jesus was promoted to a god, and the disciples and Paul attributed the age old idea of a god resurrecting to explain why Jesus died instead of leading the rebellion that he promised his disciples.
Paul also adopted parts of his home town religion (Mithraism) into what he turned into Christianity (redemption by the shedding of blood) and Paul again predicted that Jesus would come back to end the world in the lifetimes of his followers which of course never happened.
So I think Jesus mistakenly thought he was the next Moses or David (as the author of Matthew tries to paint him) and like them was to lead the Jewish people in a great battle and out of their domination by their dominators, but instead he was executed. His followers had to make some sense out of this and that is what later became the Christian religion.
300 years later Constantine, the ruler of most of the world at the time adopted the fledgling Christian religion because unlike his former religion, it allowed him to have redemption despite the fact that he murdered much of his family (and ironically the Catholic church later Cannonized him/made him a saint). Constantine is the reason that much of the world today worships Jesus because he made it the religion of most of the world by his decree. If it wasn’t for Constantine, Christianity might have remained a minor religion and may have even eventually died out.
Anyway, rambling again.
take care,
Capella
let me say a couple things…
first off when Jesus says “you will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds” he is NOT referring to his Second Coming. Rather Jesus is referring to the judgment that will take place in Jerusalem in 70ad. “coming on the clouds” is a Jewish phrase referring to judgment. we see this numerous times in the OT. and Matthews audience, which was primarily Jewish, would have immediately picked up on this unlike Americans 2000 years later.
Unlike some apologists at least you’re not trying to deny that Jesus is talking about his generation. He and Paul were clearly talking about their generation and their followers being alive when the end of the world came which was predicted not symbolically, but in unambiquous detail.
I agree that he’s talking about judgement, but he’s obviously not talking about a Roman seige of Jerusalem in 70 CE.
Note to anyone reading: because of the common primitive understanding of astronomy in the first century CE, “heaven” meant what appeared to ancient people to be the vault of the sky, and the “ends of heaven” was where the sky appears to touch the earth. This meant what they thought was the world when they said “from one end of heaven to the other” which also dovetails nicely with “from the four winds.”
Jesus is clearly not talking about the Roman seige of Jerusalem in 70 CE. No angels appeared with a loud trumpet call. The “elect” were not gathered from the four winds, the stars didn’t fall from the sky, the Son of Man didn’t appear like a bolt of lightning, everyone wasn’t swept away, etc…
Again, later in his letters Paul is still deluding himself and his followers into thinking Jesus will come back with angels, the trumpet call, etc… and he had the dead in Christ rising out of their graves and remainding followers rising to meet Jesus in the air which of course never happened either:
Doesn’t sound like the seige of Jerusalem by the Romans to me. Jesus likely wanted an uprising against the Romans which he thought would be supernaturally joined, but his predictions didn’t have the Romans winning.
He and Paul were obviously talking about the end of the world.
Just a little add-on about the stone that supposedly covered the tomb. Because of the fear of being buried alive (come on, even our culture has this), the Jews left the tomb uncovered for three days – additionally, the family members of the ‘deceased’ had to visit the tomb daily for three days, in case the dead would rise again (sorry). After three days, it was considered by the priests to have been enough time for the entombed person to blink or somesuch, so the stone could be rolled over to cover the cave.
Interesting topic. I guess there are many places in the bible that are inaccurate. Christians are taught to believe everything even if it means elaborating to make an existing story sound possible. Jesus and the rest thought the earth was flat too I assume just as stars fall from the sky. Nostradamus made vague predictions too that some say have come true with great imagination. He wrote something about falling twin brothers that suddenly became the twin towers??? I believe that a Jesus existed because it is documented in more places the the bible but no one else has documented his great magic powers to heal and turning blood to wine. You would think that the people of the time would keep logs on such huge events and hand them down to the next generations.
Just refering to your statement:
“Jesus told his disciples that they would live to see “the Son of Man” come in the clouds and the world would end. Jesus was later executed and of course he never came back and of course the world never ended. The disciples all died almost 2000 years ago.”
If you believe that “jesus told his disciples that they would live to see “the Son of Man” come in the clouds and the world would end. Jesus was later executed…” then Why do you not believe “of course he never came back”? That just doesn’t make sense. Either you believe every single word of the bible, or you don’t believe it at all.
The point is that in the Bible Jesus predicts among other things, that the world would end in his disciple’s lifetimes.
It didn’t.
So if Jesus existed and really said these things then he was wrong. If he didn’t exist or he did exist and he didn’t say these things then the Bible has fabrications in it and it’s wrong.
i think you are confusing Jesus appearing to His followers with His second coming. They are not the same. One represents the start of the kingdom era, appearing in glory after the resurrection and as a testimony. The other represents the great finale.
Please read the above comments. This has been dealt with several times above already.
Jesus clearly said things like the stars would fall from the sky, the tribes of the earth would mourn, the elect would be gathered by angels, the Son of Man would repay everyone for what has been done, if those days had not been cut short no one would be saved, compared it to Noah’s flood, etc…
It’s not the Pentecost, it’s not the transfiguration, and it’s not his appearance after the resurrection in that story.
It’s obviously the end of the world.
He said it would happen during the lifetimes of his disciples and it didn’t. Jesus, if he existed at all and if he really said these things, was wrong.
Paul the apostle also thought Jesus would come back during the lifetime of his followers and Paul was also wrong.
Hey Capella,
re: 21 and 22 above. “It then occured to me that something very interesting happened. I urge you to keep an open mind and stop wasting your time in proving that Christianity is wrong…start thinking about what life could really be about.” Personally, I think you got life pretty much figured out so keep on ‘proving’.
I’ve got your site linked on my blog. You’re one of my main references.
Thanks.
ICS,
Thanks yourself!
take care,
Capella
how do you explain if ssomeone die for hour and come back .and them said he so jesus,and the lord speak to him; you no jesus is not dead he is well alive and he be back for his people one day you going to see him too.
I think anytime someone is near death, unconscious, and they remember something. Almost certainly it was simply a dream.
I would just love to know how the first poster, David, who said, “All I know is Jesus is real”, can actually PROVE that? (without quoting scripture)
We are to assume that passages such as “this generation,” and “coming in the clouds” are to be interpreted metaphorically and are in reference to something beyond conventional understanding, and at the same time are told that the creation story is 100% factually accurate, that there was a real GLOBAL flood that killed everything that wasn’t on the ark, and that Jesus, who apparently was never wrong or told a lie, was literally born of a virgin, and is coming back sometime in “this generation.” Sometimes the bible is literal, sometimes it’s metaphorical… I suppose it’s up to the church to decide when.
[chris]
The Bible says many places to obey and listen to the voice of God. I have asked many times.”God if you exist speak to me? Well I am 65 years old and I nor or others including the Christians I have asked have not every heard anything. If any “God” existed common sense informs me and others that “it” would let all people know and we would all get the sme information. No intermediaries would be needed. Therefore I and others have concluded that no “God” exists. Of course there is a whole lot more evidence against Christianity!
Capella,
Though I disagree with you, let me first of all say that I appreciate the way you address the whole issue…not blaspheming and fuming!
I know Christian faith sounds absolutely illogical and I agree that there are many parts of the Bible that is very difficult to understand, very specifically the issue you are addressing.
(content snipped for brevity)
By the way, where you are absolutely wrong, is the fact that Jesus had in mind to overthrow Roman rule.
He said: “….pay to Caesar”
He also said that His kingdom is not of this earth.
(It was not the Romans who wanted to kill Him because of the above fact…The Jewish authorities did, because He said He was the Son of God. )
The Bible may be vague about what it meant by saying:
Mat 16:28 NRSV).. some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”
This does not necessarily refer to His second coming….His kingdom was established on earth with the first person accepting Him as Saviour.
Regards
Pieter
After being a Christian for several years, I found that the Bible is actually a lot easier to understand if one doesn’t need to rationalize it’s massive problems away to prop up a belief system. Having to prop up a believe system is actually what makes the Bible seem difficult to understand. Once a person opens their mind and accepts that the Bible is severely flawed, contradictory, and inconsistent, it’s actually fairly straight forward to understand as it’s read, as it was meant to be understood by it’s simple ancient authors.
In the case where Jesus said to “pay to Caesar what is Caesar’s” he was trying to escape trouble from a contradiction being presented to him by the scribes and priests (the establishment who was against him). It has nothing to do with his loyalties or starting a rebellion later on.
Jesus did imagine that his kingdom was not of this earth. That’s why he imagined the Son of Man “coming in his kingdom” to bring the end of the world.
The story about Jesus being crucified for blasphemy was likely a later emblellishment because as I’ve pointed out there are indications that Jesus was instead arrested for leading an insurrection.
As far as the “some standing here” quote, if you read the preceding verse (mat 16:27), it was about some of his disciples not dying until they see the “Son of Man coming with his angels to repay everyone for what they have done” and of course Jesus was wrong about that because all of Jesus’ disciples died 2000 years ago. Still no sign of Jesus coming in his kingdom to judge and end the world.
Paul was also wrong when he later predicted that Jesus would come back before all of his followers died (1 thes 4:15 & 17) because Paul and all his followers also died 2000 years ago. Still no Jesus coming in clouds. No angels, no end of the world…
Capella,
I must say you do a better job of cutting down Christianity then most people I have met. Good job.
I disagree with you that Christianity can be proven or disproven. It cant be either way. Its above all a FAITH. People believe in it because they long for a connection to some “supernatural” or divine being. Make of that as you will.
As for the illogicallities of the bible, well have fun showing them to the world. There are many. However who can blame Paul for believing Jesus would return before his death? He like everyone fears death because we do not KNOW *exactly* what happens, regardless of your beleifs. He just wanted to be taken up to heaven w/ Jesus w/out “tasting death.” and you are right he was wrong in fact but was he in his faith of the salvation in Jesus?
Although I find the bible confusing at times, you forget you cant take everything in it literally. Some things you just have to take the message said. For example the creation story. As a confirmed Christian I find that story of Adam and Eve in Eden w/ a snake to be totally bogus, yet I know the central underlying fact(?) of the story. God created everything. The logistics of it make no sense to me but I beleive He did it. As I also beleive that Jesus will return one day at the end of the world.
All I can say to you is have some faith. Call me blind, stupid or anything you want but I know what I beleive.
PS
Why specifically Christianity?
Why arnt you disproving Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, ect?
Just wondering.
Capella,
If Christ were to stand before you today, would you know if it was him? How do YOU know that He has not been present in this world on several occasions since His human death? Also, can you prove the bible is actually flawed? The Roman Catholic Church has spent millions of dollars and hours reviewing the scriptures presented to make sure that only legitimate literatures are distributed. You would think that the open ends would have been addressed by the church. Also, one of the greatest things in our relationship with God is something called Faith. That is how/why we believe. We believe without scientific proof. Otherwise, what Faith would it take to believe?
Will,
I appreciate your comments. As far as taking the Bible literally, I have to disagree with you. I think that the authors of the Bible did intend for much of the Bible to be taken literally at the time they composed it. The stories of creation, the flood, the Exodus, the genocides of Canaan, etc… I personally don’t think any of those stories happened myself and I’m aware that many Christians don’t either.
I write about the Bible and Christianity specifically because I was a fundamentalist Baptist for 7 years and that’s what I know best.
Besides, you saw what happened in England and Denmark. If I put a picture of M*******d on my website or make fun of the idea of religious leaders getting men to blow themselves up by promising them they will lay on jeweled couches and be serviced by perpetual vigins for eternity, someone might send a hit man to get me. ;^)
Capella
Boris,
I feel safe in stating that Jesus has not come back because the Bible specifically says that all of the people of the earth will see the event, like lightning flashing across the sky, on clouds of glory, and accompanied by angels.
The elect were not gathered, no one rose to meet him in the sky, the sun was not darkened, the earth did not end, etc…
This isn’t even about “scientific proof.” The Bible says that Jesus made a prediction and it obviously didn’t happen within the time limit he gave. Paul later made a similar prediction and was similarly wrong.
Capella,
Just curious, from where do you gain your ethics. I am a Christian. My friends who’ve known me my whole life tell me I’m very legalistic, accept when it comes to the Bible. I firmly belive if I wasn’t a Christian, and intern did not answer to a higher power, I would be dead,in jail, or on the run. If we are only animals, even highly evolved ones, then the law of the jungle applies. I’m bigger smarter and faster than most all the people I know and would reak havoc on the world, while playing nice games and working the niice public system. Can you explain what use of ethics is without religion.
Yes Tim,
Easily.
Common sense.
If I hurt you or someone in your family, you might come back and hurt me or someone in my family. Makes sense doesn’t it?
This stuff can actually be logically derived. It’s only the people in the world that are somehow still stupid and dysfunctional that can’t seem to grasp this.
No invisible god needed to hand this down from a mountain top. It just makes sense.
I bet that even some stone age people managed to figure out: “if I no bob him on head, he no bob me.”
There are billions of people in the world that live together and get along just fine without the Bible.
As a matter of fact, I consider much of the behavior of the god of the Bible and many of it’s heroes as dipicted in the Bible to be the poorest examples of ethics such as engaging in abandonment of family, castration, polygamy, taking of other men’s wives, robbery, killing, and genocide all approved by the god of the Bible.
The excuse that I give for the Bible authors is that they lived thousands of years ago in more primitive times. Today however you see many Christians that still support things like the bombing of women, children, and babies, the execution of people, the taking and occupation of other countries, etc…
Very inferior ethics as far as I’m concerned.
In any case, if you are really as smart as you say you are, then you should be able to work it out in your head that you don’t want to be dead from being on someone’s hit list or wind up in jail and so you will try to behave in a manner that will avoid things like this happening to you.
Wow, I have been reading all the comments for the past hour in detail; I must say I am speechless. I call myself a Christian but not really sure if I truly believe. I feel horrible for writing that considering how much further in life I have gotten based on my open belief in Christ. I’m not here to bash any side…I’m just a confused person searching the REAL TRUTH. Anyways, it has been fun reading this page. I will check back frequently in furtherance of my search for the REAL TRUTH.
Thanks
I was a fundamentalist Mennonite Christian for 33 years, and this was one of the problems which compelled me to deconvert.
I recognize now how dishonest and ignorant I was in my apologetics when I defended the faith. I would have used the same arguments as those posed by some here.
It seems whenever something is right in line it is literal, but when it is not it becomes metephorical, or improperly translated or out of context. That is when my interpretation becomes superior to yours. And that is when the wars start.
My question for the Christian god is why didn’t you say what you mean, and mean what you say? If you had, no one would be without excuse. It is that simple, and the Bible is an utter failure in this regard.
Jesus could of had help from some roman soldiers and his disciples. or maybe he never existed at all and this bible is a story book. There are many spin offs of christianity, like islam, judaism and many other branches of the church.
i would be very easy to fool people back then because no one was educated. Someone like Muhammed could of just built on the catholic religion and made his own. That may of happen with Jesus. Because, if you think of it, how can they be so many versions of God throughout the many religions?
I find it rather sad seeing the apologetics in the comments, but I wonder aside from parables, would one discern whether a passage is metaphorical or literal?
Capella, you have a great site here, on the issue of ethics, I was talking about religion to one of my coworkers at work the other day. He is a Christian and he asked me how do I choose right from wrong? I told him its simple, I was raised a certain way, I hold certain values, and therefore I make decisions on how to behave because of them. And this coworker said he was a Christian but still uses drugs and is a self-proclaimed alcoholic. I feel bad for him because I do neither of these things (I have no personal agenda against them though).
JB, thanks for the comment. I think you are 100% correct that for better or worse our parents generally instill much of our values into us and hopefully those values are more about how to get along with each other and about taking care of our planet for our children’s sake rather than teaching our children about “righteous” wars of “freedom” and which groups of people to persecute, etc…
“Morality” wasn’t handed down from a mountain top by some imaginary father figure.
It is and has always been by vastly different cultures of people, ultimately derived from common sense and only as good as the general common sense of the time.
Of course in some cultures today (and not in others) common sense is more refined than it was back in the primitive ancient times the Bible was composed.
Although Christians do tend to pick and choose just the sayings from the Bible that are more in line with the more refined sensibilities of today, the Bible is actually full of what many today consider reprehensible ideas of what is “right” and “wrong” particularly in the Old Testament where mass killing, slavery, and even sexual slavery (men having several, dozens, or even hundreds of “wives” and concubines) is held up as impressive by the authors of the Bible.
You make a lot of sense Capella-thanks.Christians also pick and choose the sayings of Christ they prefer.(eg not many are prepared to give up all their possessions to follow Christ or ‘take no thought for tomorrow’ and not worry about insurance etc.)So we all choose the morality from the Bible we like,and choose the Jesus we want to follow if we are Christians…We make him in our image!
love the site. just found you via ’skeptic’s annotated bible’.
check out the writings of bart ehrman. he’s the head honcho of religious studies at UNC and presents the very persuasive (and surprisingly airtight) notion that jesus was not predicting the end of the world or “second coming” but the coming of an actual real-life flesh-and-blood “kingdom of god” within israel; one with actual borders, thrones, etc. when this never happened, the scramble to alter his clearly apocalyptic teachings kicked into gear.
and something that has always bothered me – in our daily life, we (believers and non-believers both) don’t do ANYTHING on faith. i don’t cross the street on faith (i look both ways). i didn’t marry my spouse on faith (we dated). i didn’t buy our new washing machine on faith (we shopped around and compared). yet, a christian would ask me to accept the truth of 2000-2500 year-old anonymously-written texts with no evidence to support their claims – purely on faith.
why would i do that?
Quite right cfmoorz2.You might wanna also check out Barrie Wilson’s stuff-just google him.His book ‘How Jesus became Christian’ goes into the big Pauline switch from Jesus as Jewish Messiah in the Making, to the cosmic christian Christ whose kingdom became a spiritual-only concept,completely divorced from its Jewish roots.For not only did his followers have to deal with his failure to establish an earthly kingdom,but even worse he was crucified!Messiahs don’t get crucified,so they needed the creative brilliance of Paul to get around that one as well…..
Hi Capella,
Thanks for writing what I feel about all these religion stuff but never able to express. However, we differ in consideration of the mind which you feel is all electromagnetic and nothing else.
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In which case, the manner it needs rest should be the same as all other parts of our body. Yet, this is not so. Our consciousness and awareness department needs to be totally disconnected from all electromagnetics. It needs to sleep. Experiments with rats have shown that deprived of REM sleep for a period of time, they die. I am inclined to believe that that little something other than chemical and electrical process deteriorated so badly in previously healthy rats that the result is death.
Lionsum,
I disagree with the idea that anything supernatural needs to be brought into the picture if that is your gist? My guess is that severe sleep deprevation causes physical problems in the brain and problems with subconscious thought organization.
Capella,
It’s only a guess. We don’t know, do we? But I agree with you, it might be premature to bring in the supernatural. I am merely pointing out that unlike other organs, the mind needs to be disconnected from the brain to get properly rested. I like to make this distinction of mind and brain because we know the brain keeps working even during sleep (its activity can easily be demonstrated). But I must admit that I don’t really know. Keep checking. My apologies to all for this digression.
liongsum,
First off thanks for sharing your viewpoint which I respect as being well thought out.
My veiwpoint is that during dreaming the mind is still there, it’s just operating in a less critical and less conscious mode, although if we are awakened during a dream we can often recall the dream as if it actually happened. The body even has to paralyze itself to keep from acting on dream thoughts, sometimes somewhat unsuccessfully as in the case of talking during sleep and sleep walking.
Anyway, just my thoughts.
Take care.
capella
just curious, how old are you?
Maybe somebody can straighten this out for me:
Matthew 28 says that there were 2 women who first discovered the empty tomb.
Mark 16 says there were 3 women
Luke 24 says there were at least 5 women.
And John 20 says that Mary Magdalene was alone…
Hello??