I was saved at a Baptist church camp in 1972. I went to a dry Baptist church for a year afterwards. After receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit, I joined a spirit-filled Baptist church that I attended for six years. I eventually became involved in part-time and fulltime music ministries and saw many people come to
the Lord.
How do I know I was saved?
I said and meant the sinner’s prayer. I realized at the time that I was a sinner and that all people are born sinners. I realized that I needed the blood of Jesus to cover my sins, I accepted Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross and asked him to come into my heart and be my Lord and Savior.
As I was growing in the Lord and digging into God’s word, I noticed several problems. There seemed to be a lot of killing going on by God and God’s people that seemed
inconsistent with the way I imagined God to be. There were also errors and places that the bible seemed to contradict itself and the doctrines of our church.
I tried to find adequate answers to these difficulties and I accepted the ones that were given to me, although some seemed contrived, not very satisfactory.
Still I concentrated on my relationship with the Lord. I felt that God was loving and watching over my life. I felt I could talk to him and he would give me “impressions” of what I should or should not do. I felt safe and as though my life were planned and purposeful. I had a good feeling when I lifted my hands and worshipped or prayed as if the Holy Spirit were touching me.
All this time in the back of my head however were things that I tried not to think about because they were uncomfortable to me. One was the fact that at the time (the 70s) they were discovering many early proto-human skeletal fossils which was contrary to what my church taught.
Also, I never really saw any spectacular genuinely supernatural events or any miraculously answered prayers that couldn’t be explained away as coincidence. I was told that when prayer requests weren’t granted, that it wasn’t God’s timing or will or I wasn’t in God’s will. From my experience, the rate of prayer requests being granted seemed no more frequent than would be predicted without any kind of intervention by God. I would hear testimony about miraculous things, but they never really happened in front of me.
In the late 70s I began reading a book by Eric Berne: “Games people play.” This was not a book that concerned religion directly, but it helped me to see how incredibly powerful the need for parental figures and their approval are in the lives of everyone.
I eventually came to terms with the fact that I and all of the people I was associated with in Christianity were looking upon God as a parental figure. Also there were people in the church that were looked upon as strong parental figures, particularly the pastor. God however was imagined as the ultimate parental figure.
To a small child, parents seem 20 feet tall. They seem to have unlimited abilities, ultimate authority and they appear to know everything. At that time parents are perceived as gods. For example, mother can make meals appear out of nowhere. Father can manipulated huge moving machines (cars). They appear to control the universe. When the child is bad (sinful) they punished it. The child craves their attention and their approval.
This makes sense because humans are born completely helpless. During childhood years the child must rely completely on the parents.
Later as the child grows older comes disillusionment with the parents. They aren’t really 20 feet tall, they don’t really know everything and the adolescent may even begin to think that others can do some things better.
Because of this, the need for parental figures is either completely transferred or at least starts to include new people or entities. At this point the adolescent begins to look to friends, teachers, politicians, pop stars, other public figures, boy/girlfriends, etc…
Quite naturally, many people also at least partially if not completely transfer these parental needs to a being they imagine but seems quite real to them. This being is omniscient (all knowing), omnipotent (all powerful and controls the universe), forgives them (grants approval) and freely gives his attention around the clock. For Judeo-Christians this is of course God.
Thanks for your honesty capella.
I too expereinced a salvation experience. my life was actually turned around fairly dramatically, and i too felt the Holy Spirit as I worshipped and prayed, and I also felt the peace, guidance and purpose of God.
Before my eyes, I saw no apparent miracle….until one fateful day…
I have seen many powerful manifestations of the Holy Spirit’s power….in public places, away from Christian meetings…as well as at home in my own bedroom. I accept what you say about people transferring their parental needs to God; i actually think this is how God wants it…as He said…let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them.
It is sad that it seems your church has been a fairly limited experience, but i do encourage you not to give up on God, but continue to seek Him. He will be delighted with your perseverence in the face of unbelief…as the man with a demon possessed son in Mark said…”Lord I believe, help me with my unbelief!” You too, capella, can reach out and join Him.
Steve,
Thanks for acknowledging that I was a genuine Christian. Many Christians simply assert that I was never saved or had a “genuine” experience.
I appreciate the encouragment, but I don’t think that my Church provided a “limited experience.” I traveled all around Texas playing at dozens of different kinds of Churches in music ministries at the time. All kinds of denominations and variations including Dry Baptist, Spirit Filled Baptists, Methodist, Catholic, Assembly of God, Non-Denominational, etc…
I respectfully suggest that what you’ve seen as far as powerful manifestations were phenomena that was either misunderstood or could be easily explained. I looked back at a lot of things that happened to me that I thought were supernatural at the time, but being outside of the experience, seem very easy to explain now in natural terms such as statistics and psychological phenomena.
As far as the incredible miracles, they always happened to someone else and the farther away (and hence harder to verify) the more miraculous the story was. Miracles as told about missionaries working in other countries were of course the most spectacular.
Healings seem to come in the same ratio as would be statistically predicted, except for fake healers and again stories from people who misunderstood what happened including myself.
One time a healer put his finger in my ear, pulled it out and I could hear much better. Later I found out that he had simply unclogged my ear temporarily by suction, but the story afterwards was that God had healed my hearing.
Anyway, thanks for the comment and the concern.
Well…
it would take some difficulty to explain the exorcism i took part in…
but i’m sure it could be done….its just…i think its more rational to believe in demons and the power of the name of Jesus over them. anyhting else seems like stretching the theories to fit the facts….
I know that this does not pertain to the subject at hand, but although I was raised in a Christian household and went to church every week, I never really understood this religion, or others like it. But I never questioned the Christian God or It’s teachings until I was 17. That’s when I began to wonder, “If man was created first, why does he have nipples?” In fact, why do any male mammals have nipples? That’s how it all began. I started REALLY analyzing the bible and seeing the hypocrisy oozing from every page. And that’s when I felt betrayed by the bible. But my first question still goes unanswered.
That’s an excellent question. Why do men have nipples?
Also, if we were “designed,” why do humans have a useless (vestigial) and dangerous organ such as the appendix?
Why do human embryos grow air slits and tails while developing?
Why does the human brain have a stem, a reptillian-like tier, a mammilian tier, and a cerebrial cortex? One stacked on top of the other, all redundant and often conflicting with each other? What kind of designer would design such a thing?
I have called myself a Christian since childhood,when I sat at my Grandmothers knee and she read from Proverbs, and the ten commandments to me.We prayed the lords prayer every evening before falling asleep in the big feather bed.I consider those experiences pleasant ones that influenced me throughout my life.On the other hand,fortunately, we rarely attended church(Baptist) as we were very poor and had no transportation.But on the rare occasions that we did I came away with a negative feeling. That little child sensed a spooky phoniness there. I’ve never joined any church.And now since I’ve been studying in depth the O.T.,N.T.,Midrash,Gnostics etc. I realize how easily I was duped on these issues told to me by word of mouth Christians who are so easily led to the altar of intellectual slaughter. I was a bit shaken at finding out the truth, but my motto is, the truth, no matter how distasteful,is always preferable to a lie.I’m very much happier with the new found freedom I now have in my life. Religion like politics and corporate structures all have an agenda, which is to have their fingers wrapped around your throat,contrioling you, from the cradle to the grave,through fear, indoctrination and brainwashing.(Talk about the axis of evil!) I do not consider myself an atheist,and at this point in my journey I am open to a rational, loving god. But not the god of the bible, who is one of the most hateful,manipulative,vengeful psycopaths ever invented in the minds of men.Thanks to the internet, and web sites such as yours, we now all have access to finding the truth that has for so many centuries been denied us by the evil powers that be.It is the responsibility of all thinking persons to be responsible to find that truth, or remain in bondage to these powers at their own peril.
Hi Capella,
I too am an ex-Christian. There are many of us who have escaped the clutches of Christianity.
I love your site. Thanks for all the hard work you put into it.
If you have time, I would encourage you to visit and participate in the forums on exchristian.net. We would love to have you there.
Taph
I know why men have nipples. It’s because of evolution. We all start out as female in utero. Somewhere way back in our DNA was an animal like a frog that was androgenous and could develop into either sex.
Taph
As a matter of fact, some people today are androgenous. There’s Pat and her/his girl/boyfriend Chris. ;^)
Capella, This was a great read and could also pass for my story. Even though I was born in Ohio and moved back as an adult I grew up in Texas and attended a church(Truth Church) in Ft.Worth Texas pastored by Mark Hanby(sp). There was many reasons that turned me away from the church but the main one was what I learned from being forced to read the Bible every day my whole childhood. Contradictions just start popping up. You know whats funny?? I truly believe that preachers teach “read your bibles” fully aware no one does or will. If more people did churches wouldnt have so many paying seat warmers.
capella, great site, i too am an ex-christian for 20 years, my father is a penicostal minister, my mother a jew, i left christianty for judisum, as in judisum there is room for agnostics, and even atheists. i think all religions are a crock, religion was to draw one closer to god, not set up lines in the sand so you feel better about hateing thoses who piss you off. somehow it became giving god money, and not working on fixing the crap thats in each of our own lives. church has become enteraining, slick, its an artform, a show. so were does this put us? the disinfranschised,once savied,hell bound , back sliding, holy spirit griving, twice dead people? you feel compeled to speack out, i as well feel like we should do something. but what? i too live in texas, (central) the chruch is so well funded, the lies so deaply ingrained, i have tryed to get some athieast to go to the christian forums and take thwe fight to them but they were to stuck on there self, and content in there superior thought, to be troubled. so were does that put us? i was wondering what you thought?
Thanks for the kind words. I think the best remedies for religion are education of our psychological needs and openess of mind.
I agree that religion is so ingrained in society that there’s little hope of mass awakening in the next generation or two, but it’s always nice to see that some people have figured it out.
take care,
torahisthetruth: YAY for you! Did you know that Christian Goyim to Conservative Jew is one of the GROWTH religious conversions in America? My cult (Wiccanish Voodruid) are another one. HOY Gevalt, me kinsman!
Capella,
Your article is excellent, you need to expand it. If you’re in the mood (NO musical jokes, Odin dammit!) try MY religion. Initiator: You. Spiritual authority: You. Sacred books: Gerald Gardner’s “Book of Shadows” or “The Witches’ Bible” by Janet and Stewart Ferar. The Earth is our church, the Sky is our scripture. God is a woman and a LOT nicer than the Three-headed White Man from Connecticut.
Seriously,
Yo’ Cuz,
Terrible Tommy Murray
Yes i have been throught the same things my self even praying in the spirte didnt give me the feeling everyone said it ,i was a christain from the time i was born i was never out of church every time the doors opened i was there and i helped with everything i cleaned i cooked and did many things for the pastors there and i see nothing from it, that and many other thing showed me that there are other things that make more since. and i thank my ex-boyfriend for that he helped me see the fault it faith and religon. But yes i an no longer a christain and im proud to say so. ^_^
“Professing to be wise….
I guess you know the rest. Believe it.
If you are a Christian, I’m puzzeled at why you think insulting someone will somehow help their situation. If your intent was not unselfish then I assume you have either gotten a superior feeling out of calling someone a fool or you have helped reassure yourself in your faith.
In any case, when I was a Christian, we were taught what I think were better approaches to dealing with the “lost” and the “backslidden.”
take care,
Capella
Good article, Capella. I’m always pleased to find people who can recognize hypocrisy and inconsistencies, and are able to see organized religion for a sham.
Having said that, I can understand people following a religion out of a need for answers, sense of community, etc. But anyone who believes that the Bible should be taken literally is a fool (or hasn’t read the book): it contains so many flat-out contradictions that it just can’t be taken literally. Not that that’ll get in the way of anyone who’s determined to believe it.
I have had a similiar experience with Christianity. However, I did not reject it all and become an athiest such as yourself. First of the things I did, I ripped the New Testament out of my Bible. This resolves the majority of the contradictions and problems with the Bible. I eventually bought a Tanakh (the Hebrew Bible) This resolved further problems as Christian translations are not renowned for their accuracy. Third, I started associating with the Jewish people. I learned from them that much of what Christians claim is not in the Hebrew Bible, such that God is not all knowing, all powerful, and all good. That there may or may not be an afterlife. That perhaps true justice really doesn’t happen, the wicked do prosper, the righteous do suffer, and there may be no reckoning. You are right when you say people have psychological needs to believe these fanciful things. It takes a stronger person psychologically to abandon ideas that just don’t hold up to reality. But I feel that you have thrown out the baby with the bath water. This does happen to disallusioned Christians. Try Judaism, from which Christianity came, which has a tradition twice as old as Christianity, which also makes some attempt to reconcile Bible with reason. The more I study, the more I become agnostic. But to be athiestic is a position that is proud in that one does not admit their ignorence regarding the mysteries of life. Thank you for your website.
Brian, I wonder if your final statement:
“But to be athiestic is a position that is proud in that one does not admit their ignorence regarding the mysteries of life”
is not necessarily true in all cases of atheism. My own father was a staunch atheist and was ever eage to take a potent argument to any priest, rabbi, etc. who would debate with him. He was proud and felt above any possibility that a sentient deity existed which held dominion over his life (which is I believe the “position” you warn about).
On the other hand, I myself am merely a questing bug, one of the little two-dimensional people that has looked up from the 2D page that had been the world as he understood it and suddenly realized that there is an entire 3D (and more?) Existence out there which he does not understand. Since rejecting any human-contrived “scripture” to explain Existence, I admit more than ever my ignorance of it all and have far more now than ever before to speculate upon re: the “mysteries of life” as you put it. ;-)
I should mention that when I say people look to religion for answers to question or out of social or whatever needs, I don’t mean it in a bad way. We all need answers to certain question, and we all have social and other needs. I needed answers to questions just as much as any religious person; I just came up with different answers when I looked hard at things.
Brian, I’m not certain how a statement of “God doesn’t exist” is more proud than “God exists”, especially when it’s often followed by “and he wants us to do _____” or some such. If the Bible (or even the Torah or Tanakh) were clear about everything it said–and it’s not–it still comes down to an arguement along the lines that “This is right because this minister I believe in says so” or “This is right because this section of the text (as opposed to that section, which I prefer to ignore) says so.” I just don’t see much difference there on the pride scale.
hello there…after commenting on much I figure I might as well comment here as well.
I think I’m living your story..only backwards….I was raised christian, never really believed in God, actually was angry that anyone belived him for a while, didn’t trust anything said in any book written by man, was hit with a reality check…adn a person with lots of questions…suddenly
I was a questioning one that tried much and found God. My story could almost match up with yours…except…different churches, different ministries…and the fact that although I question. I find answers in God.
I hope you find what you’re looking for.
meanwhile….count on prayers…I prolly won’t be on here for a long while…we’re leaving the state for a month…and along with leaving the state goes leaving my high speed cable internet access in my room. I’m taking a vacation from this time sucker to sit, dwell, and smile about all that’s been done for me….peace out….feel free to e-mail me
CAM
It’s all about belief. We can choose whatever belief we want and we can change our minds whenever we want. Like marriage. On our wedding day we believe the person we are marrying is the one we should marry; we belive we love them and he/she loves us. Unfortunately, one day for many people they stop believing that. It’s not easy holding on to a belief when things appear to contradict that belief. That is what faith is. It’s perseverance in a belief. Without some perseverance in particular beliefs, wouldn’t we just have chaos and confusion? Hey, just like we do. Atheism is a system of beliefs also. There are so many belief systems out in the world. Believe whatever you want for as long as you want. But do your beliefs do any good whatsoever? To yourself, to others, to society? Do you care? Every belief system is difficult to hold on to at some time. Do you have the strength to hold on to the one you have decided on despite opposition? Would you actually die for it? What makes a person die for their beliefs? Are you a person who quits or gives up? At what point do you find yourself giving up, changing your mind? These are just some questions I ask myself sometimes; then I decide whether I’m going to stick to something or not. Endurance and completion have great rewards.
I disagree about it all being about belief. It’s all about reality instead.
Also, it wasn’t a matter of things going badly and me bailing out. It was a matter of me putting two and two together and awakening to what was actually going on, much as you might have had an apithany once in your life about Santa Claus or the tooth fairy. It wasn’t a matter of things going badly. You probably just realized that one man couldn’t make it to all those houses in one night, etc…
Much as many would like to project, Atheism is not a belief system, it’s a thinking system and a system of skepticism.
As far as dying for one’s belief, that lends zero to the belief’s credibility. People of other religions are quite happy to die for their beliefs also, but in view of all of the contradictions between faiths, one must admit that at least many faiths are false and their believers are self deluding themselves. I think that all are false and all believers delude themselves for various reasons, such as psychological gratifications.
Do I occasionally give up? Yes I do. I’m not one for “steady leadership,” especially if I discover that the steady leadership is boating people to the end of a waterfall. I’m in favor of learning and adapting to situations instead.
take care,
Capella
Okay, first of all, I personally tend to question what reality is. Don’t all atheists also? Like, I see something one way and a friend sees the some thing another way. Are we talking perspective? Or are we just sticking to the “facts”, but then again, as each of us sees them? Who’s right? Who’s right in a group of 2 people? Who’s right in a group of 2 million people?
Secondly, are you against any god or just the God of the Bible, or the one you “imagined“? :) Have you tried other gods? Did you go ahead and ditch all gods because of One. Isn’t that the same principal as a guy ditching all women because one confused or disappointed him? Or perhaps he decides on just unsatisfying (I’m talking something deeper than sex here), shallow relationships thereafter. Is modern science and the limitations of the human mind and the “crude” instruments (they will one day be considered as such) your starting point?
As for thinking and skepticism, I personally was never so skeptical and never did as much thinking as when I decided to believe in and follow the God of the Bible, both Old Test and New, documents of spiritual principles like any sacred text. My skepticism and doubt and thinking extend to my fellow man and his/her motives which are basically selfish and agendized albeit they may appear good and smart and they themselves may think they are good and smart. I question and doubt God also many times but I believe….
The New Testament is NOT about church buildings and collection plates. It’s NOT about showy Holy Spirit slayings and worship that I’m not sure sometimes if it’s the Holy Spirit or the backbeat (sometimes our bass player and drummer rock pretty well). Following Jesus is NOT a religion and religions ARE shackles. To me (but then I can get pretty angry), modern Christianity is a shallow religion; following Jesus is a deep, personal relationship that takes patience, both on His part and ours (kinda like a marriage).
Okay, I have to quote a scripture here from the New Testament: “All things are lawful for me but not all things are profitable; all things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything.” (I Cor 6:12).
I still say it’s about what we choose to believe or not believe. And based on our beliefs or “non-beliefs”, can the mind be put at rest at some point? Also once the concept of something is introduced to the mind, how does one make it not exist anymore? So it may ONLY exist in the mind. But isn’t that true reality, what we think/believe and think/believe not, with the resources we have on hand at the time. Then what comes next is how we order our lives around that.
I did try for a time being an atheist but I found it exhausting and shallow. With all the information in the world, scientific and otherwise, who or what was I supposed to believe? Information changes so quickly. At what point was I to rest and build my world? I guess I wasn’t doing atheism right.
Church steeple, satellite dishes. Crude and juvenile, but funny.
This is probably too long. I ran off at the mouth although you and others probably think it was more like the other end. So basically, is it that we do what we can, have the fun that we can, and then we die?? Okay. A bit lackluster, but ok.
Take care,
Barb
My opinion here is that our track record on reality has gotten a lot better since the advent of science a few centuries ago. Progress before that, was mostly trial and error and often distorted by religion.
Have you tried other Santa Clauses since you woke up and realized that the xmas one doesn’t exist? ;^)
I think that’s great that you question and doubt rather than blindly believe.
I disagree with what I think is your implication is that I had an inferior level of “personal relationship,” “patience,” etc…
Everyone tends to choose to believe things that make them feel better. This is called “rationalizing.” One of the main goals of the scientific method is to filter out such bias because it can distort our perceptions of reality. So, I disagree that it all about what we choose to believe. If two people choose to believe contradictory things, at least one of them is wrong.
Not objective reality. Again, there are scores of different and contradictory religious beliefs in the world. Obviously, on the basis of contradiction, at least most of them are wrong and their believers are deluding themselves.
Reality as opposed to rationalization can be exhausting and shallow depending on the viewpoint. To a person who believes in the bible, the idea of the Israelites marching triumphantly out of Egypt through a parted red sea to go on to eventually slaughter everyone in Canaan and take their land may be a lot more exciting than the idea that the Israelite culture, religion, and people simply evolved from the Canaanites.
To some however, uncovering what really happened is a lot more exciting and interesting than a thousand myths.
As far as conflicting information some theories are well supported and some ideas are simply conjectures. The only solution is to try to learn as much as you can about things that interest you in order to attempt to tell the difference.
Thanks. I hope you got the point behind the humor?
I think that’s basically true. I’ve had people ask me where the meaning of life comes from? My response is that it doesn’t come from anywhere. You have to make your own meaning. When it goes well, life is more about what you make of it and less about what happens to you. The difference between depression and being happy often is how people respond to their situations. I used to give my mother funny looks when she told me that the depression of the 1930s was the happiest time of her life, but later I understood why.
Then again, there are people that have very horrible conditions forced upon them by chance or much worse, by dysfunctional people.
take care,
Capella
Capella,
Thanks for your reply. This might be it as I need to get on with other activities of my life. It’s been fun and educational; I do want to address two things that stand out to me in your reply:
1) I in no way was attacking the depth (or lack of) of your relationship with God at that point of your life. We all who profess Him lack a certain degree of depth at any time. One of the characteristics of God is His infiniteness and therefore, there is no end to the depth of the relationship we can have with Him. If it matters to you, I believe you believed at one time, that you had a personal relationship with Him, and that you were saved. Not that it matters to you what I believe, but it appears what matters to you is what you had.
2) Yes I think I got the point–is it a) ”Mine’s bigger than yours” and the male human nature/ego (subconscious or not) is the same in all circles (church steeples-religion, Empire State Building-business, Washington Monument-politics); or b) Christians are
pr–ks? Ouch.
I’m still trying to understand something–so atheists believe in nothing, or perhaps to say you don’t believe in anything. (I did approach your website with the idea that atheists deny the existence of a “higher power” but have come to learn you all just basically don’t care about it. Did I get that right?) And so you don’t actually “believe” the scientists and psychologists and such and your own conclusions; you just “think” they’re correct in their research and findings and interpretation of data and you “think” their conclusions are unbiased and unaffected by their particular human condition or personal beliefs at the time (or at least not to a corrupting degree). But you all don’t really “believe” any of it? And it’s not like you have “faith” in their abilities to accurately do and report on their work? You just think they do?
Thanks,
Barb
Barb,
thanks for acknowledging that my Christian experience was sincere and genuine. Not everyone I’ve talked to is as open minded and respectful.
To the last point, that is basically correct. I personally don’t like the word “believe” because it has such a wide range of usage all the way from, for example: “physicists believe that gravity causes things to fall towards the earth” to “I believe my brother-in-law will stop drinking even though he’s promised many times over the years and has always fallen off of the wagon.”
In the first usage, the “belief” is so well supported that it is almost beyond question. The other side of the spectrum shows a belief in something completely irrational that gives comfort to the believer.
That’s why I prefer the word “think.” It’s possible to believe something that comforts, but think otherwise.
I would bet that most Atheists could care less about splitting such hairs. I’ve found however that the subtle distinctions between “believe” and “think” comes up often in philosophical discussions with Christians.
Barb, I appreciate your input. Thanks for taking the time to register your thoughts. I guess you’ve noticed that I don’t censor out opinions that differ from mine on my website. I think it’s good for all to contribute to the archive.
I wish you the best in your life,
Capella
Thanks Capella.
Peace and happiness to you.
Barb
Hi,
I have enjoyed reading the postings in your little forum here. Good for you for diggin deep into your understanding of the world around you. I am a born again Chrisitian and find much of what you are saying very compelling. I too shared many of the same values and opinions you have expressed until I was in my early 20’s. Now almost 30 I have been learning and growing as a Christian. I would like to echo Barbs sentiments about relationship versus religion. I have found in my short time as a Christian that this is the pivitol difference between empty musings about what God should be and the reality of who God can be to so many people. I have observed in the non-denominational church I attend that there are those who attend church empty and leave empty and there are those that are fulfilled through and through. Psychological or not I can’t deny the truth of transformation in the lives of people around me and in my own life.
My journey is too long to share here but I know that there is a line that was drawn on the tablet of my life that separates Corey B.C. and Corey A.D. I’m not saying everything is roses and sunshine. I have actually found this life more trying than the first but also more satisfying and fulfilling.
I had tears in my eyes reading your first entry because I feel a deep loss for you at the breaking down of your relationship with Christ.
I do have one question for you. What if?
What if humans botched things up and Christ is the truth? What if we over-analyze the world around us. What if the scriptures are inspired by God and though they are difficult to swallow at times… I have much difficutly with much of what is written in scripture.
But what if, because if God is God we can’t presume to understand fully a being way beyond us, at the end of your life you find yourself face to face with Jesus?
Will you be happy or sad?
Thanks for putting yourself outthere. Your journey entrigues me and I feel your struggles.
All the best
Corey
Corey,
Thanks for the nice comments and for recognising that I was indeed a Christian at one time.
As far as “what if,” although I was Christian once, I’ve found that there are so many problems and inconsistencies with Christianity and other religions that today for me it would be like going back and believing in Santa Claus again. I hope you understand that position?
As far as believing “just in case,” please read my article on Pascal’s Wager.
thanks again for the nice comment,
Capella
Hello Capella,
Just a thought….
Being a Christian is so simple. Why have so much else to figure out about life in any other belief or unbelief?
Life is busy and complicated enough without trying to find your own way. Being a Christian cuts out a whole lot of wasted time and junk in life.
If I am wrong who cares, but if I am right then….well you and all the other non Christians would be wrong DEAD WRONG.
Don’t take that chance….
It is so comforting to know as a Christian you will never die…. How comfortable are you with your own death?
Take Care
Watch your back
God Bless You,
Donna
Hi all.
I too was once born again at around the age of 13, but then at around age 17 or so I began to question my faith. I think that around that age if you asked me, I would have nominally identified myself as Christian. But then at 19 or so I decided to figure out the question for good.
I decided to no longer able to be intellectually lazy on the topic.
I dove into apologetics, other religions, science and pseudo-science (creation science- I wanted all sides of every argument). I came out an atheist and I’m still pissed that for so many years of my life, the mental belief structure in my mind was so convoluted and ignorant.
These people who are Christians would be Muslims if they were born in Iran. They are merely falling for the peer pressure demographics of the “most popular religion” of their region.
There is no more of a reason to believe in heaven than there is to believe in reincarnation. Again it’s simply a matter of where you’re born. These people allow geography to shape their mental belief structure.
I really do respect people who make a rational choice to be religious. How can you criticize someone’s choice?
But sadly, this is not the case for 90% of religious people. They are indoctrinated from infancy on. Religious fundamentals and right-leaning moderates who actually believe in Heaven and Hell have been duped by a psychological and memetic virus. The minister tells this person they have a problem (going to hell) and then they offer them the solution. I had a virus on my computer recently that operated on this same principle. The virus caused a balloon to pop up every maddening 30 seconds to take me to the website that sold the $50 solution. That of course was to be paid to them - the virus maker. I’m afraid religions operate sadistically similar to this.
People really piss me off when they spout this “man in God’s image” trash. We are 98.5% genetically identical to chimpanzees. These people, when they say such unabashed and unfounded arrogant bull manure, are saying God is nearly 99% chimp. I have high enough opinion of God that if he exists, IF, then he is much more than the childish anthropomorphic version.
For those out there who still are in a state of denial about evolution, let me explain it to you in a few sentences: Nobody denies microevolution. Time + geographic separation + genetic drift / selection - i.e. microevolution = macroevolution and speciation. SIMPLE.
Comparative biology proves evolution, comparative theology annihilates the religious idea of God.
I guess that I am still agnostic turned to a deism form of God (none of the ID junk however), but I am totally convinced that the anthropomorphic, theistic version does not exist.
These people that talk about a “personal relationship with Christ” are telling me that I need to adopt a principle that in children would be coined imaginary friend. But somehow, an imaginary Jesus friend for adults is OK in our society.
As for an afterlife, there is none. When we die, we’re dead. Look reality in the face and quit whining about it.
Donna you said: “It is so comforting to know as a Christian you will never die.” Well, if I believed I had a million dollars in my wallet, that would make me feel pretty good too. But believing something is in no way a means to make it reality. It is immoral to believe something simply because it makes you feel good.
Atheists have the moral high ground here when it comes to rooting out emotional bias and seeing reality for what it really is.
Faith is dishonest hope.
Sorry to wax angry here, but that’s what I am.
Thanks for the site Capella and thanks to anyone who read this - I can’t even talk about this stuff around my bible-literalist family. It really lets me vent some steam.
Hello Capella,
I just casually went through all the comments and the your article about how you turned around after truely submiting yourself to God once upon a time.
Well, after all what I could not figure out is that whether you believe in the existence of God or not.
Sandy,
Since I awoken out of Christianity, I have been without any belief in any gods including Yahweh/Elohiym/Theos (the bible god). I’m also without belief in anything supernatural.
take care,
I believe in God because He is the Creator of the universe. Let us not fool ourselves. Let us be real. If He did not do it, who did?
David,
There doesn’t have to be a “who did.” The universe came about by itself.
Anyone that feels a requirement to ask “who did” also has to ask who created the who in “who did” and so on…
You can’t require a creator for the universe and then break your own rule by not requiring a creator for the creator and so on.
If the universe can’t come about by itself then neither can something as complex as a creator come about by itself.
take care,
Capella
Capella,
You are a very intelligent man, I enjoyed a lot many of the ideas who wrote. We are sibilings in disbelieve. You made me laugh. I enjoyed this site.
Saludos desde Mexico
I believe the Bible is not to be taken literally. I look at it as morals for all of us to follow, believe and reflect on. Also, my religion accepts both evolution and creation. I believe God created evolution. I’m Catholic. I’ve never been “saved”, but I share a lot of the same views as many who have been “saved.” I just want you, Capella, to know that not all of Christianity is how I understand you may think it to be! :)
Liz,
Good for you. I’m glad you don’t take the Bible literally.
I do however understand a lot about the Catholic faith. Many of my relatives are Catholic and I even went to a private Catholic high school for my sophmore year and took a (required) religion class.
I have disagree however with the assertion that the Bible provides moral direction. While there are precious few sections of the Bible that do have some good sayings and advice, much of the Bible condones killing, stealing, slavery, debasement of women, and other injustices.
One of my favorite sections of the Bible is written by Paul (1 Corith 13) and is about love. Excellent chapter of the Bible.
Unfortunately this is the same Paul who says that all women have judgement that is inferior to men because of the Adam and Eve story.
I still like some of the advise in Proverbs which is supposed to have been written by King Solomon, but King Solomon is portrayed as having his competition murdered immediately after his father died when he ascended to the throne, enslaving thousands of forced laborers to build his temple, having 1000 wives and concubines, condoning the beating of children and beating and wounding people in general, etc…
Moses, Joshua, Samson, and King David were all portrayed as blood thirsty murderers.
Particularly Moses and Joshua who are portrayed as having had whole towns murdered by the hacking and stabbing to death of all men, women, the elderly, children, babies (except for in some cases “young women” who were brought back for “wives”).
Among many other acts of genocide, God himself was portrayed in one story as coming out of the sky to throw bolders down to crush men, women, and children fleeing from Joshua’s armies.
Jesus had a few good sayings attributed to him, but many of these were just reiterations from other much earlier sources.
In any case, as I mention in the article, I think that all believers in the God of the Bible (including Catholics) imagine a loving, powerful, all knowing parental figure that will forgive them, keep them safe, watch over every detail of their lives night and day, etc… This is the believer’s way to satisfying a psychological need that all people have for approving parental figures, a need left over from childhood.
“Our father who art in heaven…”
Pretty much everything you said echoes my own experience (with the exception of the part where it happened in the 70s).
No one who ever knew me at that time would claim that I was not truly and devoutly Christian. In fact, I’m ashamed to admit that as little as three years ago, I would have been the guy you fortified your position against — the guy who said you you could turn away, you were never really saved.
Well, you know the rest. I never took my faith blindly, and never shied away from a test — if my faith was the truth, then nothing could shake or shatter it. I always questioned.
Well, as you well know, it was not the truth, and so here we are. I still miss the comfort of the fantasy, I won’t lie, but my honest nature won’t let me accept it anymore.
I haven’t read the rest of your site yet (I found this via the SAB), but thank you for what a religion would call your “testimony”. Rationalism (not to be confused with rationalization) is gaining more of a hold every day and it’s because of voices like yours.
Michael,
Thanks for sharing your story.
Capella
I became an ex-christian by really reading and studying the bible. It is a horrid hateful book.
Your view makes perfect sense. The world is a scary place and the thought of having an omniscient being looking over you is very comforting. Especially, as you noted, when one realizes the limitations of their parents. Fear is, after all, the very basis of religion. In fact, where would religion be without it? Combine fear with a whopping dose of self-loathing (You’re a sinner!) and you’ll have them down on their knees tithing away. I’d be having a good laugh at the believer’s expense if their belief wasn’t threatening our very existence.